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Based on your last sentence, you might be ending negotiations too early. An early “bottom-line” ultimatum leaves money on the table because the details haven’t

Based on your last sentence, you might be ending negotiations too early. An early “bottom-line” ultimatum leaves money on the table because the details haven’t been fully considered by the other party, so (in auto sales) the seller hedges with a higher price. A more thorough discussion can bring down the offer they are willing to accept. You don’t have to care about the details to use them in a negotiation.

chrisseaton 8y ago
I don’t get it - asking ‘can you reduce line item n by x’ is exactly the same thing as ‘can you reduce the bottom line by x’, except the former asks them to do something they may not be able to do (that’s how this conversation started - the delivery fee) and the latter lets them achieve what you want any way they’re able to. So why would you ever use the former approach? It’s strictly worse.
- arbie 8y ago
  This is the human factor at play.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- jancsika 8y ago
  > I don’t get it - asking ‘can you reduce line item n by x’ is exactly the same thing as ‘can you reduce the bottom line by x’ "Can you reduce bottom line by x" is like saying, "the documentation is a bit vague, can you improve it please?" "Can you reduce line item n by x" is like saying, "there's no way the user could possibly intuit that the sampling period may be truncated to precisely hit the target value after the specified duration. Given that the programming language itself has no specification, this longstanding behavior must be explained clearly in the user docs." Which response do you suppose will be more likely to lead to an improvement in the docs? It's probably the one that shows evidence you know your domain and how to assess quality there. Of course, that analogy is the dream. In reality the car salesperson will come back with the reduced line item but with adjustments somewhere else. And it's hard to keep track of because, for example, how would an increase in the down payment affect your idea of the "total bottom line?" This would be like a developer countering by saying, "Ok, but to clarify that section of the docs I added threading to the event loop." And then every single developer suddenly becomes some kind of darkworld saboteur, and you finally give in by saying, "I guess this is just how software gets made..."
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    Just look at the total-cost-of-ownership. As long as I can afford the down payment and I can afford the monthly payment then I just want to reduce the total-cost-of-ownership for the car I want. In other words I want the dealer to optimise for that variable and as long as they meet my constraint for affording the down and monthly payments then I don't care how those vary as long as the optimisation goal is met. Line itemisation is very silly for cars. All I need to know is how much does it cost me to get the car. I don't care that some of that money goes to person A and some of it to person B. Irrelevant to me!
    - jancsika 8y ago
      > In other words I want the dealer to optimise for that variable and as long as they meet my constraint for affording the down and monthly payments then I don't care how those vary as long as the optimisation goal is met. But you would have already told them, "As long as I can afford..." So they'll spend the entire exchange trying to optimize for the maximum amount they think you can afford. They can try to convince you they've optimized when they really haven't, and they can try to pick a vehicle of a lower quality and persuade you that the price drop is the optimization. If your response to every trick is to respond, "No, please try again to optimize for TCO," they'll eventually interpret your behavior as the equivalent of an ad-blocker. Then they'll either persuade you to reveal more data or move on to a customer who negotiates on their terms.
      - chrisseaton 8y ago
        I don’t understand how you think it’s any different - you ask ‘can you reduce the price for the paint finish’ and I ask ‘can you reduce the bottom line price’. In both cases it’s the same reduction in their profit margin. Why do a dance around which line item it supposedly comes off?
        1123581321 8y ago
        Because they will say no to your question and yes to jancsika’s question. We’ve given you some reasons why rhetorical/persuasive skill and willingness to work to find an angle on a negotiation improves the results. There is a difference simply because the results are different, whether due to the need to save face, behavior psychology, sales training, or more intangible factors.

chrisseaton 8y ago

I don’t get it - asking ‘can you reduce line item n by x’ is exactly the same thing as ‘can you reduce the bottom line by x’, except the former asks them to do something they may not be able to do (that’s how this conversation started - the delivery fee) and the latter lets them achieve what you want any way they’re able to. So why would you ever use the former approach? It’s strictly worse.

arbie 8y ago
This is the human factor at play.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
jancsika 8y ago
> I don’t get it - asking ‘can you reduce line item n by x’ is exactly the same thing as ‘can you reduce the bottom line by x’ "Can you reduce bottom line by x" is like saying, "the documentation is a bit vague, can you improve it please?" "Can you reduce line item n by x" is like saying, "there's no way the user could possibly intuit that the sampling period may be truncated to precisely hit the target value after the specified duration. Given that the programming language itself has no specification, this longstanding behavior must be explained clearly in the user docs." Which response do you suppose will be more likely to lead to an improvement in the docs? It's probably the one that shows evidence you know your domain and how to assess quality there. Of course, that analogy is the dream. In reality the car salesperson will come back with the reduced line item but with adjustments somewhere else. And it's hard to keep track of because, for example, how would an increase in the down payment affect your idea of the "total bottom line?" This would be like a developer countering by saying, "Ok, but to clarify that section of the docs I added threading to the event loop." And then every single developer suddenly becomes some kind of darkworld saboteur, and you finally give in by saying, "I guess this is just how software gets made..."
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  Just look at the total-cost-of-ownership. As long as I can afford the down payment and I can afford the monthly payment then I just want to reduce the total-cost-of-ownership for the car I want. In other words I want the dealer to optimise for that variable and as long as they meet my constraint for affording the down and monthly payments then I don't care how those vary as long as the optimisation goal is met. Line itemisation is very silly for cars. All I need to know is how much does it cost me to get the car. I don't care that some of that money goes to person A and some of it to person B. Irrelevant to me!
  - jancsika 8y ago
    > In other words I want the dealer to optimise for that variable and as long as they meet my constraint for affording the down and monthly payments then I don't care how those vary as long as the optimisation goal is met. But you would have already told them, "As long as I can afford..." So they'll spend the entire exchange trying to optimize for the maximum amount they think you can afford. They can try to convince you they've optimized when they really haven't, and they can try to pick a vehicle of a lower quality and persuade you that the price drop is the optimization. If your response to every trick is to respond, "No, please try again to optimize for TCO," they'll eventually interpret your behavior as the equivalent of an ad-blocker. Then they'll either persuade you to reveal more data or move on to a customer who negotiates on their terms.
    - chrisseaton 8y ago
      I don’t understand how you think it’s any different - you ask ‘can you reduce the price for the paint finish’ and I ask ‘can you reduce the bottom line price’. In both cases it’s the same reduction in their profit margin. Why do a dance around which line item it supposedly comes off?
      - 1123581321 8y ago
        Because they will say no to your question and yes to jancsika’s question. We’ve given you some reasons why rhetorical/persuasive skill and willingness to work to find an angle on a negotiation improves the results. There is a difference simply because the results are different, whether due to the need to save face, behavior psychology, sales training, or more intangible factors.