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The observation that the cultural distance between the author and Uyghurs is less than that between the author and Han Chinese rings true for me. I've never bee

The observation that the cultural distance between the author and Uyghurs is less than that between the author and Han Chinese rings true for me. I've never been to China, but I've had a similar sense of the distance with Chinese and Muslim friends here in the U.S., even though theoretically I "should" feel closer culturally to my Chinese friends with whom I share a common religion. Very interesting indeed.

thratchnee 8y ago
What units do you measure culture in? I feel more similar to my Middle Eastern friends than I do to my Western ones, do any of our opinions have objective merit?
- exolymph 8y ago
  I vouched for this comment, which was previously invisible unless you had showdead toggled on. The thought is expressed civilly and I see no reason for it to be flagged out of the conversation.
  - thratchnee 8y ago
    It's a controversial topic and this is a new account. I know it's against the guidelines but I seriously believe that the intellectual rigor commentors on this site hold themselves to has gone down recently. So many unsubstantiated claims without anyone calling them out.
mirimir 8y ago
Based on TFA, it's pretty clear that Uyghurs and Western Europeans are far more similar than either is to Han Chinese. By appearance, which more-or-less means genetics. And by religion and culture, both Uyghurs and Western Europeans having been Judeo-Christian for centuries. But anyway, it'd be better if Xinjiang were independent. Or even if it had been occupied by Russia, as the "stans" and Mongolia were. But so it goes. And arguably, if there were some area, occupied by China, that was populated largely by Jews or Slavs or some other Western European ethnic group, they'd be just as screwed as the Uyghurs are. Edit: If someone actually has some evidence that TFA is wrong, and that Buddhist Han Chinese were historically the majority in Xinjiang, please share. Everything that I've found online does seem to agree.
- thaumasiotes 8y ago
  > both Uyghurs and Western Europeans having been Judeo-Christian for centuries ...what? I'm pretty sure that if there is any sense in which the Uyghurs were Judeo-Christian for centuries, they were also Buddhist for centuries in the same sense. But I tend to doubt the premise.
  - mirimir 8y ago
    Yeah, OK. I was being sloppy. I should have said "Judeo-Christian-Muslim". But really, Muslims and Christians are both basically mutant Jews. Same God. And ~same older prophets. Muslims actually credit Christ as a prophet. Just not the latest one. Pretty much like Mormons, with Joseph Smith. And all of that is totally different from old-school Han. Where do you get Buddhist from? TFA says: > The most populous ethnicity in Xinjiang was Uyghur, though the scales have tipped as more Han Chinese have moved into the province. Uyghurs are Turkic in ethnicity and language, look very different from Han Chinese, and are typically Muslim.
    - byw 8y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_Xinjiang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_Xinjiang
      - mirimir 8y ago
        Huh. If that article is accurate, then China actually has a better claim on Xinjiang than the Uyghurs do. So is it accurate? Edit: But actually, China's behavior in the 18th and 19th centuries was worse. > Xinjiang consists of two main geographically, historically, and ethnically distinct regions with different historical names, Dzungaria north of the Tianshan Mountains and the Tarim Basin south of the Tianshan Mountains, before Qing China unified them into one political entity called Xinjiang province in 1884. At the time of the Qing conquest in 1759, Dzungaria was inhabited by the Dzongar people, a steppe dwelling, nomadic Mongol-related ethnic group who practiced Tibetan Buddhist. Meanwhile, the Tarim Basin was inhabited by sedentary, oasis dwelling, Turkic speaking Muslim farmers, now known as the Uyghur people. They were governed separately until 1884. The native Uyghur name for the Tarim Basin is Altishahr. > In the Dzungar genocide the Manchus exterminated the native Buddhist Dzungar Oirat Mongolic speaking people from their homeland of Dzungaria in Northern Xinjiang and resettled the area with a variety of different ethnic groups. > The Qing "final solution" of genocide to solve the problem of the Dzungar Mongols, made the Qing sponsored settlement of millions of Han Chinese, Hui, Turkestani Oasis people (Uyghurs) and Manchu Bannermen in Dzungaria possible, since the land was now devoid of Dzungars. Damn.
7uytff42 8y ago
I feel this can be a self fulfilling prophecy. When I went to China, I definitely got along better with my Han Chinese friends, coworkers and acquaintances. Granted, there weren’t many Uighurs there, but interacting with them felt very shallow. And it wasn’t a Muslim issue, as the ones I met that were Hui were very friendly. There is a difference between me and other expats: I can speak and understand Mandarin. I find the interactions with Chinese people changes dramatically when you speak to them in Mandarin.
- exolymph 8y ago
  > Granted, there weren’t many Uighurs there, but interacting with them felt very shallow. Can you elaborate?

thratchnee 8y ago

What units do you measure culture in? I feel more similar to my Middle Eastern friends than I do to my Western ones, do any of our opinions have objective merit?

exolymph 8y ago
I vouched for this comment, which was previously invisible unless you had showdead toggled on. The thought is expressed civilly and I see no reason for it to be flagged out of the conversation.
- thratchnee 8y ago
  It's a controversial topic and this is a new account. I know it's against the guidelines but I seriously believe that the intellectual rigor commentors on this site hold themselves to has gone down recently. So many unsubstantiated claims without anyone calling them out.

mirimir 8y ago

Based on TFA, it's pretty clear that Uyghurs and Western Europeans are far more similar than either is to Han Chinese. By appearance, which more-or-less means genetics. And by religion and culture, both Uyghurs and Western Europeans having been Judeo-Christian for centuries. But anyway, it'd be better if Xinjiang were independent. Or even if it had been occupied by Russia, as the "stans" and Mongolia were. But so it goes. And arguably, if there were some area, occupied by China, that was populated largely by Jews or Slavs or some other Western European ethnic group, they'd be just as screwed as the Uyghurs are. Edit: If someone actually has some evidence that TFA is wrong, and that Buddhist Han Chinese were historically the majority in Xinjiang, please share. Everything that I've found online does seem to agree.

thaumasiotes 8y ago
> both Uyghurs and Western Europeans having been Judeo-Christian for centuries ...what? I'm pretty sure that if there is any sense in which the Uyghurs were Judeo-Christian for centuries, they were also Buddhist for centuries in the same sense. But I tend to doubt the premise.
- mirimir 8y ago
  Yeah, OK. I was being sloppy. I should have said "Judeo-Christian-Muslim". But really, Muslims and Christians are both basically mutant Jews. Same God. And ~same older prophets. Muslims actually credit Christ as a prophet. Just not the latest one. Pretty much like Mormons, with Joseph Smith. And all of that is totally different from old-school Han. Where do you get Buddhist from? TFA says: > The most populous ethnicity in Xinjiang was Uyghur, though the scales have tipped as more Han Chinese have moved into the province. Uyghurs are Turkic in ethnicity and language, look very different from Han Chinese, and are typically Muslim.
  - byw 8y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_Xinjiang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamization_of_Xinjiang
    - mirimir 8y ago
      Huh. If that article is accurate, then China actually has a better claim on Xinjiang than the Uyghurs do. So is it accurate? Edit: But actually, China's behavior in the 18th and 19th centuries was worse. > Xinjiang consists of two main geographically, historically, and ethnically distinct regions with different historical names, Dzungaria north of the Tianshan Mountains and the Tarim Basin south of the Tianshan Mountains, before Qing China unified them into one political entity called Xinjiang province in 1884. At the time of the Qing conquest in 1759, Dzungaria was inhabited by the Dzongar people, a steppe dwelling, nomadic Mongol-related ethnic group who practiced Tibetan Buddhist. Meanwhile, the Tarim Basin was inhabited by sedentary, oasis dwelling, Turkic speaking Muslim farmers, now known as the Uyghur people. They were governed separately until 1884. The native Uyghur name for the Tarim Basin is Altishahr. > In the Dzungar genocide the Manchus exterminated the native Buddhist Dzungar Oirat Mongolic speaking people from their homeland of Dzungaria in Northern Xinjiang and resettled the area with a variety of different ethnic groups. > The Qing "final solution" of genocide to solve the problem of the Dzungar Mongols, made the Qing sponsored settlement of millions of Han Chinese, Hui, Turkestani Oasis people (Uyghurs) and Manchu Bannermen in Dzungaria possible, since the land was now devoid of Dzungars. Damn.

7uytff42 8y ago

I feel this can be a self fulfilling prophecy. When I went to China, I definitely got along better with my Han Chinese friends, coworkers and acquaintances. Granted, there weren’t many Uighurs there, but interacting with them felt very shallow. And it wasn’t a Muslim issue, as the ones I met that were Hui were very friendly. There is a difference between me and other expats: I can speak and understand Mandarin. I find the interactions with Chinese people changes dramatically when you speak to them in Mandarin.

exolymph 8y ago
> Granted, there weren’t many Uighurs there, but interacting with them felt very shallow. Can you elaborate?