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I don't understand why these boutique Linux system vendors all end up gravitating towards rolling their own distributions -- Pop!_OS (ugh) for System76, PureOS

I don't understand why these boutique Linux system vendors all end up gravitating towards rolling their own distributions -- Pop!_OS (ugh) for System76, PureOS (https://www.pureos.net/ https://www.pureos.net/) for Purism, etc. I've been running Ubuntu on my machines for something like a decade now, and have experience with Debian and Red Hat/Fedora from before that. I know what to expect from these distributions. When you tell me you've rolled your own distribution, I have no idea what to expect, which turns me off from your product. And if the answer is "you can expect exactly the same as what you'd get from Ubuntu/Debian/Fedora/whatever," then why bother rolling a new distro in the first place? Why take what should be a simple sales pitch and make it more confusing? They seem to think the idea of learning my way around Yet Another Linux Distribution is an enticement. It isn't -- especially when the only community around the distribution is a single small company, which means that anything I do learn is unlikely to be useful beyond using that company's products. As soon as I buy from someone else, or that one small company goes out of business or loses interest in maintaining the distro, I can take all that knowledge and toss it in the bin. No thanks. (Weirdly, the only company in this space that seems to really get this is Dell. I feel like I'm living in the Mirror Universe.)

Scarbutt 8y ago
In the case of System76 they do allow you to choose ubuntu as your OS.
- smacktoward 8y ago
  Right, I know, but that just adds more confusion. You can get it with Ubuntu, for instance, but if you want it set up with full-disk encryption you have to choose Pop!_OS for some reason. And since Ubuntu is presented as a second-class alternative to the preferred Pop!_OS, when I choose it now I'm wondering if that's going to have consequences should I ever need to try and get support from System76. Are they just going to tell me I should install Pop!_OS? Honestly, seeing as how you can download Ubuntu and install it yourself I think they'd be better off (from a sales perspective, I mean) just omitting the Ubuntu preinstall option altogether. Anyone who wants it could still get it, and it'd take a "wait, what?" moment out of the experience of using their configurator.
  - nickik 8y ago
    Seems to me your making this much more of a drama then it actually is.
  - bwat49 8y ago
    It's easier for them to ship Pop!_OS with FDE, because they have their own OEM style installer for Pop!_OS that's specifically suited for this type of thing. This is one of the reasons that Pop!_OS exists. Since they offer both, I can't imaging you'd have any issues with their support due to running ubuntu instead of Pop.
nextos 8y ago
I couldn't agree more. Rolling your own distribution is in general a bad idea, unless you have lots of resources to develop and maintain it. Plus a very good reason to do so! But Dell often also screws it up. I ordered a really expensive workstation from them (>$15k), configured with Ubuntu as OS. However, it was not vanilla Ubuntu as advertised but a patched Ubuntu of the latest LTS. The machine always got stuck in an infinite loop after setting the timezone and entering user details within one of the welcome dialogs. Totally unacceptable. I installed the very same Ubuntu LTS version, just a vanilla one, and everything worked fine.
- freedomben 8y ago
  I had this happen as well with a brand new precision model. What I found was that Dell had patched broken drivers in the kernel and then pushed the fix upstream (bless them for that!) Once the hardware was about 6 months old the vanilla kernel had the fixes and I was fine installing stock Fedora on the machine. I was pretty happy with this compromise (tho I wish I had known up front about the custom driver). They didn't delay shipping but did future proof it. If they ever don't push the fixes upstream tho, they'll be dead to me ;-)
everdrive 8y ago
I agree completely, and have only popped in to note that you can order System76 with regular old Ubuntu.
lazzlazzlazz 8y ago
This entire comment is a non-issue since you can specify what distro you want. Let's not get focused on a red herring because one person decided to shoot out a verbose comment.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  With the same drivers?
  - bebop 8y ago
    Yeah, with the purchase of the machine you can specify Ubuntu 18.04. They also have a ppa where you can install all of their drivers from, which works on both pop and Ubuntu.
- woodruffw 8y ago
  I've looked into buying a System76 laptop (and probably will at some point this year), and it's definitely an issue for me as a consumer. Debian and Ubuntu are known quantities; I'd like to know why Pop!_OS is even an option, and whether I'm losing out on something I might want by not selecting it.
PhilippGille 8y ago
I guess they want to cater to people who think a product works best if the hardware and software are both made by the same company. And many people think so probably because of Apple products.
newnewpdro 8y ago
It's because they want control over app delivery. They aspire to be another Apple w/iOS, or another Google w/Android. Embracing GNU/Linux and the free-software ecosystem is the shortest path towards achieving this goal. These companies aren't necessarily concerned with supporting libre software in reality. It's just the most convenient option for the moment, what realistic alternatives are there? They aren't pursuing control over the access to and deliery of apps without any intention of leveraging it should they succeed in acquiring sufficient market share. Personally I'm in favor of continuing to support independent operating system vendors and paying hardware manufacturers for standardized hardware we can use with any standards-compliant operating system of our choice. It's unfortunate that the more GNU/Linux matures, the more it enables the proliferation of vendor-specific distributions competing for control over the software their users consume.
- snazz 8y ago
  I could be wrong about this, but I’m pretty sure all the software in both Pop and Pure come from their upstream distro’s packages. The hardware companies don’t package software themselves minus maybe a couple of firmware/driver things. I guess they could, if they wanted to, but they have very little incentive to do so and it’s not like they have complete control over the market like Apple and Google do. Pissing off their target market would be suicide and would keep potential customers buying used ThinkPads instead.
- nickik 8y ago
  Or maybe your totally misinterpreting their motives of a company that has spend years investing into linux and supporting linux.
shmerl 8y ago
Agreed, and Purism should have used Plasma Mobile as well, instead of reinventing the wheel for Librem 5.
smallgovt 8y ago
I assume it's because they think it builds brand loyalty. That is, they believe that the ppl who opt into Pop OS over vanilla Ubuntu, are likely to fall in love with Pop OS and therefore purchase more System76 machines down the road. The downside is perceived to be limited since new customers can opt out of Pop OS. Without inside knowledge around customer retention and top of funnel conversion rate, it's hard to know whether it's a good or bad business decision.
- robotbikes 8y ago
  Pop OS is basically Ubuntu with some additional theming and tweaks to improve the desktop experience and automatically install the various Sytem76 drivers. I think they decided to create their own distro because they were wary that Canonical was going to be more focused on the server space when they decided to shutdown Unity and switch to Gnome for their desktop. System76 decided that they wanted to step up and take a little bit more of an active role in building a desktop experience. In reality there is very little difference from Ubuntu and so you can install any Ubuntu packages or follow any Ubuntu based how-to.
blihp 8y ago
I suspect it's because in the end all they're really selling is a barely differentiated commodity. Sure, they might spec one bluetooth chipset vs another etc with their contract manufacturer to get the needed driver support. But once that's done, it's a pretty bog-standard PC with the main value add being not including and charging for a Windows license. Rolling their own theoretically different, but really largely just a re-branded, distro gives them a way to differentiate even though it's largely a distinction without a difference. If all they shipped was a vanilla distro on top of the hardware, they'd really only be offering configuration and tech support services for competitors who will just ship a PC with the same hardware configuration for a few bucks less and point them to the same vanilla distro.
- O1111OOO 8y ago
  > they'd really only be offering configuration and tech support services... I think you are severely undervaluing support and the logistics of running a business. Support is, in fact, their strongest selling point. A new distro diminishes their offering (for me). We all understand that it's not something you toss together. It takes effort and as a buyer, I'd rather see that effort used for support, hardware testing, etc.. Selling hardware (even if it's rebadged), providing support, allowing returns, taking responsibility for key updates, multi-year warranties, etc... this, I think, is what most people are after in a vendor. Along with competitive pricing... We can all install Linux (or try to) on Windows laptops but many of us don't want to deal with the headaches if we encounter a problem. We just want it to work out of the box so we can get to work soon after opening the box. There's an awful lot of value to this. I can't help but think about Litebook (https://alpha.store/ https://alpha.store/) and the disaster it turned out to be during the entire process[0]. All of the failures were based on the support side, customer service, shipping, hardware testing, etc. Their reputation was already developing, in the early stages, but users still wanted to believe in a "bang for the buck" Linux laptop running a time-tested distro (Elementary OS when they first started). The business crashed and burned. It had nothing to do with the distro. [0] https://old.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/7rn0l4/alpha_store_victims_organize_here/ https://old.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/7rn0l4/alpha...
  - 8y ago
ascii_only 8y ago
They want some control over their OS. Ubuntu have dropped Unity support and OEMs couldn't anything about it. Suddenly user experience changed and transition Unity-> Gnome wasn't smooth. This was breaking point. OEMs wasn't happy about it and to make sure they don't have to be same situation again they have made their Ubuntu flavors/distributions
_bashskids 8y ago
Good as long as the distribution is compatible with & uses the official repositories, with just a 'few' tweaks & enhancements.

Scarbutt 8y ago

In the case of System76 they do allow you to choose ubuntu as your OS.

smacktoward 8y ago
Right, I know, but that just adds more confusion. You can get it with Ubuntu, for instance, but if you want it set up with full-disk encryption you have to choose Pop!_OS for some reason. And since Ubuntu is presented as a second-class alternative to the preferred Pop!_OS, when I choose it now I'm wondering if that's going to have consequences should I ever need to try and get support from System76. Are they just going to tell me I should install Pop!_OS? Honestly, seeing as how you can download Ubuntu and install it yourself I think they'd be better off (from a sales perspective, I mean) just omitting the Ubuntu preinstall option altogether. Anyone who wants it could still get it, and it'd take a "wait, what?" moment out of the experience of using their configurator.
- nickik 8y ago
  Seems to me your making this much more of a drama then it actually is.
- bwat49 8y ago
  It's easier for them to ship Pop!_OS with FDE, because they have their own OEM style installer for Pop!_OS that's specifically suited for this type of thing. This is one of the reasons that Pop!_OS exists. Since they offer both, I can't imaging you'd have any issues with their support due to running ubuntu instead of Pop.

nextos 8y ago

I couldn't agree more. Rolling your own distribution is in general a bad idea, unless you have lots of resources to develop and maintain it. Plus a very good reason to do so! But Dell often also screws it up. I ordered a really expensive workstation from them (>$15k), configured with Ubuntu as OS. However, it was not vanilla Ubuntu as advertised but a patched Ubuntu of the latest LTS. The machine always got stuck in an infinite loop after setting the timezone and entering user details within one of the welcome dialogs. Totally unacceptable. I installed the very same Ubuntu LTS version, just a vanilla one, and everything worked fine.

freedomben 8y ago
I had this happen as well with a brand new precision model. What I found was that Dell had patched broken drivers in the kernel and then pushed the fix upstream (bless them for that!) Once the hardware was about 6 months old the vanilla kernel had the fixes and I was fine installing stock Fedora on the machine. I was pretty happy with this compromise (tho I wish I had known up front about the custom driver). They didn't delay shipping but did future proof it. If they ever don't push the fixes upstream tho, they'll be dead to me ;-)

everdrive 8y ago

I agree completely, and have only popped in to note that you can order System76 with regular old Ubuntu.

lazzlazzlazz 8y ago

This entire comment is a non-issue since you can specify what distro you want. Let's not get focused on a red herring because one person decided to shoot out a verbose comment.

pjmlp 8y ago
With the same drivers?
- bebop 8y ago
  Yeah, with the purchase of the machine you can specify Ubuntu 18.04. They also have a ppa where you can install all of their drivers from, which works on both pop and Ubuntu.
woodruffw 8y ago
I've looked into buying a System76 laptop (and probably will at some point this year), and it's definitely an issue for me as a consumer. Debian and Ubuntu are known quantities; I'd like to know why Pop!_OS is even an option, and whether I'm losing out on something I might want by not selecting it.

PhilippGille 8y ago

I guess they want to cater to people who think a product works best if the hardware and software are both made by the same company. And many people think so probably because of Apple products.

newnewpdro 8y ago

It's because they want control over app delivery. They aspire to be another Apple w/iOS, or another Google w/Android. Embracing GNU/Linux and the free-software ecosystem is the shortest path towards achieving this goal. These companies aren't necessarily concerned with supporting libre software in reality. It's just the most convenient option for the moment, what realistic alternatives are there? They aren't pursuing control over the access to and deliery of apps without any intention of leveraging it should they succeed in acquiring sufficient market share. Personally I'm in favor of continuing to support independent operating system vendors and paying hardware manufacturers for standardized hardware we can use with any standards-compliant operating system of our choice. It's unfortunate that the more GNU/Linux matures, the more it enables the proliferation of vendor-specific distributions competing for control over the software their users consume.

snazz 8y ago
I could be wrong about this, but I’m pretty sure all the software in both Pop and Pure come from their upstream distro’s packages. The hardware companies don’t package software themselves minus maybe a couple of firmware/driver things. I guess they could, if they wanted to, but they have very little incentive to do so and it’s not like they have complete control over the market like Apple and Google do. Pissing off their target market would be suicide and would keep potential customers buying used ThinkPads instead.
nickik 8y ago
Or maybe your totally misinterpreting their motives of a company that has spend years investing into linux and supporting linux.

shmerl 8y ago

Agreed, and Purism should have used Plasma Mobile as well, instead of reinventing the wheel for Librem 5.

smallgovt 8y ago

I assume it's because they think it builds brand loyalty. That is, they believe that the ppl who opt into Pop OS over vanilla Ubuntu, are likely to fall in love with Pop OS and therefore purchase more System76 machines down the road. The downside is perceived to be limited since new customers can opt out of Pop OS. Without inside knowledge around customer retention and top of funnel conversion rate, it's hard to know whether it's a good or bad business decision.

robotbikes 8y ago
Pop OS is basically Ubuntu with some additional theming and tweaks to improve the desktop experience and automatically install the various Sytem76 drivers. I think they decided to create their own distro because they were wary that Canonical was going to be more focused on the server space when they decided to shutdown Unity and switch to Gnome for their desktop. System76 decided that they wanted to step up and take a little bit more of an active role in building a desktop experience. In reality there is very little difference from Ubuntu and so you can install any Ubuntu packages or follow any Ubuntu based how-to.

blihp 8y ago

I suspect it's because in the end all they're really selling is a barely differentiated commodity. Sure, they might spec one bluetooth chipset vs another etc with their contract manufacturer to get the needed driver support. But once that's done, it's a pretty bog-standard PC with the main value add being not including and charging for a Windows license. Rolling their own theoretically different, but really largely just a re-branded, distro gives them a way to differentiate even though it's largely a distinction without a difference. If all they shipped was a vanilla distro on top of the hardware, they'd really only be offering configuration and tech support services for competitors who will just ship a PC with the same hardware configuration for a few bucks less and point them to the same vanilla distro.

O1111OOO 8y ago
> they'd really only be offering configuration and tech support services... I think you are severely undervaluing support and the logistics of running a business. Support is, in fact, their strongest selling point. A new distro diminishes their offering (for me). We all understand that it's not something you toss together. It takes effort and as a buyer, I'd rather see that effort used for support, hardware testing, etc.. Selling hardware (even if it's rebadged), providing support, allowing returns, taking responsibility for key updates, multi-year warranties, etc... this, I think, is what most people are after in a vendor. Along with competitive pricing... We can all install Linux (or try to) on Windows laptops but many of us don't want to deal with the headaches if we encounter a problem. We just want it to work out of the box so we can get to work soon after opening the box. There's an awful lot of value to this. I can't help but think about Litebook (https://alpha.store/ https://alpha.store/) and the disaster it turned out to be during the entire process[0]. All of the failures were based on the support side, customer service, shipping, hardware testing, etc. Their reputation was already developing, in the early stages, but users still wanted to believe in a "bang for the buck" Linux laptop running a time-tested distro (Elementary OS when they first started). The business crashed and burned. It had nothing to do with the distro. [0] https://old.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/7rn0l4/alpha_store_victims_organize_here/ https://old.reddit.com/r/linuxhardware/comments/7rn0l4/alpha...
- 8y ago

ascii_only 8y ago

They want some control over their OS. Ubuntu have dropped Unity support and OEMs couldn't anything about it. Suddenly user experience changed and transition Unity-> Gnome wasn't smooth. This was breaking point. OEMs wasn't happy about it and to make sure they don't have to be same situation again they have made their Ubuntu flavors/distributions

_bashskids 8y ago

Good as long as the distribution is compatible with & uses the official repositories, with just a 'few' tweaks & enhancements.