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Ever wonder why Facebook is giving everyone on earth so much free software and processing power? They seem to be making money, how do they do it? [10 minutes o

Ever wonder why Facebook is giving everyone on earth so much free software and processing power? They seem to be making money, how do they do it? [10 minutes of deep thought] Ok, we get it. If someone offers you something of value for free, politely say "no thanks" and run the other way. Edit: If a for-profit company offers you something of value at no cost, you or someone else will end up paying for it later. Advertisers pay Facebook for your personal data, and you suffer because your privacy has been violated.

hrktb 8y ago
> If someone offers you something of value for free, politely say "no thanks" and run the other way. You are explicitely asking people to think for themselves and understand what’s going on. From this point of view I think that last bit feels mantra like and going on the opposite. The same way “if you’re not the customer you’re the product” was relevant in some cases but has started a life on its own and could go continue a long life in a farm upstate I think. We’re in a world when there is genuine free and extremely valuable things that are not bound to weird schemes. Linux is free, VLC is free, vaccination is free, legal representation for people who can’t afford it is free. As you point out knowing why it’s free is crucial, and people should take the time to think bout what they want to rely on, instead of following some “don’t talk to strangers” kind of stopgap.
- chillacy 8y ago
  I might nit and say that a lot of these things (especially vaccination and legal representation) are subsidized, the government or insurance is paying so you can get it for “free”.
  - vageli 8y ago
    > I might nit and say that a lot of these things (especially vaccination and legal representation) are subsidized, the government or insurance is paying so you can get it for “free”. This is not free except in the narrowest sense.
jniedrauer 8y ago
> If someone offers you something of value for free, politely say "no thanks" and run the other way. Where does free software fit in this?
- macawfish 8y ago
  Incidentally, a lot of people do say "no thanks" and run the other way when presented with free (as in freedom) software
  - zelphirkalt 8y ago
    I think they are too inexperienced or shortsighted to see the long term implications of opting in to proprietary software and depending on it. They will later suffer for it, until they learn. And some never learn.
- awakeasleep 8y ago
  Exactly where the license places it
- doctorpangloss 8y ago
  It's great that "if it's free, you should run away" or "if you're not the customer, you're the product" or any of those other sayings are finally been seen as extremely reductive.
  - vageli 8y ago
    > It's great that "if it's free, you should run away" or "if you're not the customer, you're the product" or any of those other sayings are finally been seen as extremely reductive. Is it really the case that we've forgotten "There's no such thing as a free lunch?"
    - Jonanin 8y ago
      That's not the same thing.
- 8y ago
elorant 8y ago
The scariest thing about Facebook is that they allow advertisers to target by e-mail. This has a number of implications. Say I want to target a specific individual. I create a bunch of fake profiles to meet the minimum number of required e-mails for an ad and then launch it. This way the only real person who's gonna see it is the one I'm targeting. Now imagine running this scheme with everyone you know. Your ex, friends, co-workers, your competitors, you name it. You can learn all their needs and desires by creating dozens of fake ads that lead to a bogus site that doesn't actually sell shit but works as a front for whatever product you want to advertise.
- randycupertino 8y ago
  This scheme would only work assuming those people are all on facebook and actively use it, correct?
  - elorant 8y ago
    Yes. And they have to use the same e-mail with the one you know.
    - roblabla 8y ago
      Not necessarily. Facebook just needs to have associated the email you know with their profile somehow. They can do this silently, thanks to their tracking. There was a thread about it on HN a few weeks ago ok another facebook story.
- ipsum2 8y ago
  I'm not following this. So we have some victim's email that they've linked to Facebook, and we add some fake emails to pad out the minimum number of required emails. So you have to design a series of ads that are enticing enough to click on, and the victim will click on it. When they realize they clicked on a fake site, they'll exit it. How many people here have clicked on Facebook ads in the last week? It seems incredibly time consuming, costly, and ineffective. It seems easier just to send some fake emails and check if they opened the email.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
rock_hard 8y ago
Most everything on the internet is free...so are you saying we should just stop using it?
- vageli 8y ago
  > Most everything on the internet is free...so are you saying we should just stop using it? Free in what sense? We need to stop constraining the notion of "free" to monetary value.
  - zelphirkalt 8y ago
    Yes indeed, thank you! Even here on HN so many people do not know what they are talking about when they say "free software".
- WilliamEdward 8y ago
  This is a shortsighted viewpoint of how value, money, and the concept of 'free' works. Someone had to put in effort to put up the websites you use for free. Someone is paying or motivating those developers to keep doing that so you don't have to. The problem is all free software comes at the cost of either being made by someone who is doing it out of kindness or someone who is pawning your data. You cannot know which one it is.
  - zelphirkalt 8y ago
    Yes shortsighted, but also uninformed. In an informed sense of the the word group "free software" there are ethical standards connected to it and those are about not "pawning data" as well.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
bhelkey 8y ago
Two questions: 1) is this site "something of value"? 2) how much did you pay to access it?
jefftk 8y ago
This rule would entail "run away from HN" (along with most of the rest of the internet)
- ImaCake 8y ago
  I agree. But HN is advertising for ycombinator. It is a known quantity what ycombinator wants from this site, so the risk of "paying" some unseen and unfortunate price is small.
jaabe 8y ago
I may be the minority, but I don’t mind the advertising aspect as much. Actually I kind of like that it brings me relevant advertising for kickstarters of board games. What I dislike is all the other evil stuff they do. All the anti-democracy bullshit, the social experiments, the enablement of genocides, anti-vaxxers, the government bot armies and the total disregard for truth. It may be because I’m European, but I actually think platforms should be held responsible for all the evil they enable. I didn’t always, but after a decade of Facebook I don’t think anyone should be able to escape responsibility for having supplied a platform it’s users used for genocide.
amelius 8y ago
> Ok, we get it. If someone offers you something of value for free, politely say "no thanks" and run the other way. The problem starts when half of your colleagues accept that "something", and start discussing it on HN. (For example: "React", or any other FB open source project).

hrktb 8y ago

> If someone offers you something of value for free, politely say "no thanks" and run the other way. You are explicitely asking people to think for themselves and understand what’s going on. From this point of view I think that last bit feels mantra like and going on the opposite. The same way “if you’re not the customer you’re the product” was relevant in some cases but has started a life on its own and could go continue a long life in a farm upstate I think. We’re in a world when there is genuine free and extremely valuable things that are not bound to weird schemes. Linux is free, VLC is free, vaccination is free, legal representation for people who can’t afford it is free. As you point out knowing why it’s free is crucial, and people should take the time to think bout what they want to rely on, instead of following some “don’t talk to strangers” kind of stopgap.

chillacy 8y ago
I might nit and say that a lot of these things (especially vaccination and legal representation) are subsidized, the government or insurance is paying so you can get it for “free”.
- vageli 8y ago
  > I might nit and say that a lot of these things (especially vaccination and legal representation) are subsidized, the government or insurance is paying so you can get it for “free”. This is not free except in the narrowest sense.

jniedrauer 8y ago

> If someone offers you something of value for free, politely say "no thanks" and run the other way. Where does free software fit in this?

macawfish 8y ago
Incidentally, a lot of people do say "no thanks" and run the other way when presented with free (as in freedom) software
- zelphirkalt 8y ago
  I think they are too inexperienced or shortsighted to see the long term implications of opting in to proprietary software and depending on it. They will later suffer for it, until they learn. And some never learn.
awakeasleep 8y ago
Exactly where the license places it
doctorpangloss 8y ago
It's great that "if it's free, you should run away" or "if you're not the customer, you're the product" or any of those other sayings are finally been seen as extremely reductive.
- vageli 8y ago
  > It's great that "if it's free, you should run away" or "if you're not the customer, you're the product" or any of those other sayings are finally been seen as extremely reductive. Is it really the case that we've forgotten "There's no such thing as a free lunch?"
  - Jonanin 8y ago
    That's not the same thing.
8y ago

elorant 8y ago

The scariest thing about Facebook is that they allow advertisers to target by e-mail. This has a number of implications. Say I want to target a specific individual. I create a bunch of fake profiles to meet the minimum number of required e-mails for an ad and then launch it. This way the only real person who's gonna see it is the one I'm targeting. Now imagine running this scheme with everyone you know. Your ex, friends, co-workers, your competitors, you name it. You can learn all their needs and desires by creating dozens of fake ads that lead to a bogus site that doesn't actually sell shit but works as a front for whatever product you want to advertise.

randycupertino 8y ago
This scheme would only work assuming those people are all on facebook and actively use it, correct?
- elorant 8y ago
  Yes. And they have to use the same e-mail with the one you know.
  - roblabla 8y ago
    Not necessarily. Facebook just needs to have associated the email you know with their profile somehow. They can do this silently, thanks to their tracking. There was a thread about it on HN a few weeks ago ok another facebook story.
ipsum2 8y ago
I'm not following this. So we have some victim's email that they've linked to Facebook, and we add some fake emails to pad out the minimum number of required emails. So you have to design a series of ads that are enticing enough to click on, and the victim will click on it. When they realize they clicked on a fake site, they'll exit it. How many people here have clicked on Facebook ads in the last week? It seems incredibly time consuming, costly, and ineffective. It seems easier just to send some fake emails and check if they opened the email.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

rock_hard 8y ago

Most everything on the internet is free...so are you saying we should just stop using it?

vageli 8y ago
> Most everything on the internet is free...so are you saying we should just stop using it? Free in what sense? We need to stop constraining the notion of "free" to monetary value.
- zelphirkalt 8y ago
  Yes indeed, thank you! Even here on HN so many people do not know what they are talking about when they say "free software".
WilliamEdward 8y ago
This is a shortsighted viewpoint of how value, money, and the concept of 'free' works. Someone had to put in effort to put up the websites you use for free. Someone is paying or motivating those developers to keep doing that so you don't have to. The problem is all free software comes at the cost of either being made by someone who is doing it out of kindness or someone who is pawning your data. You cannot know which one it is.
- zelphirkalt 8y ago
  Yes shortsighted, but also uninformed. In an informed sense of the the word group "free software" there are ethical standards connected to it and those are about not "pawning data" as well.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

bhelkey 8y ago

Two questions: 1) is this site "something of value"? 2) how much did you pay to access it?

jefftk 8y ago

This rule would entail "run away from HN" (along with most of the rest of the internet)

ImaCake 8y ago
I agree. But HN is advertising for ycombinator. It is a known quantity what ycombinator wants from this site, so the risk of "paying" some unseen and unfortunate price is small.

jaabe 8y ago

I may be the minority, but I don’t mind the advertising aspect as much. Actually I kind of like that it brings me relevant advertising for kickstarters of board games. What I dislike is all the other evil stuff they do. All the anti-democracy bullshit, the social experiments, the enablement of genocides, anti-vaxxers, the government bot armies and the total disregard for truth. It may be because I’m European, but I actually think platforms should be held responsible for all the evil they enable. I didn’t always, but after a decade of Facebook I don’t think anyone should be able to escape responsibility for having supplied a platform it’s users used for genocide.

amelius 8y ago

> Ok, we get it. If someone offers you something of value for free, politely say "no thanks" and run the other way. The problem starts when half of your colleagues accept that "something", and start discussing it on HN. (For example: "React", or any other FB open source project).