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Lack of sleep, sudden change of routine, total immersion in a new mindset, and withholding food is the classic playbook of cult indoctrination. The point is to

Lack of sleep, sudden change of routine, total immersion in a new mindset, and withholding food is the classic playbook of cult indoctrination. The point is to weaken existing barriers that would otherwise keep people aloof, disengaged, and instead create a total experience. I’m not claiming that a meditation retreat is a cult indoctrination, at least not most of the time. It does however share some commonalities with indoctrination, and interrogation. If your goal is radical change, a breakthrough emotional or otherwise, this is an ancient and proven system to make it happen. Boot camp has some things in common, because it is quite the indoctrination, but they feed you well, and focus more on breaking down the ego and forming a group identity and esprit de corps. Cults focus on breaking people mentally and creating dependence. Interrogation tends to focus on disorientation and a need to bond with the interrogator. Meditation retreats focus on breaking existing habits and perspectives and instilling new ones. Similar tracks, different intentions and outcomes. Another difference is that in the military you’re screened for prexisting psychological issues, and they have a vested interest in that screening process. You also have trained observers at all stages who know to look for signs of deterioration. In a retreat you have no screening, no such resources, and no training in recognizing early signs of psychosis.

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namlem 8y ago
There's never been any sleep or food deprivation at any retreat I've been to. They keep an early schedule because that's what they used to. The routine that parent described is basically normal for your typical early bird.
- geomark 8y ago
  It's basically the standard monk's schedule. Might be a shock for late sleepers used to eating and snacking throughout the day. Enough of a shock to set off some people. The Thais have an idiom for it which translates to "allergic to the robe". It happens to new monks sometimes. I saw it happen to one new monk in the group I ordained with. A few days after ordination I saw him running and yelling that the senior monks were trying to kill his family.
- Dylan16807 8y ago
  Going "hey non early bird, enforced early bird schedule NOW" is a shock to the system. It doesn't matter if it's normal to a completely different person.
- lnanek2 8y ago
  At least at the Dharma Drum Mountain retreats I've been to, it's true they have restrictions on what to eat and when. For example, garlic is contra indicated, offensive smell and supposedly makes you randy. Eating dinner is contraindicated, offered, but you'll notice the monks not eating it and just having tea or something. It's considered a medicine meal for the sick. Personally, I do feel more restful and ready for sleep at the end of the retreat days without dinner, but I do see how people not used to it could consider it food deprivation.
enraged_camel 8y ago
>>Lack of sleep, sudden change of routine, total immersion in a new mindset, and withholding food is the classic playbook of cult indoctrination. None of these: >>awake and breakfast at ~6AM, dinner at 4pm, lights out at 9PM (and no meal until breakfast the next day.) ..fit your criteria. Lights out at 9PM and waking up at 6AM gives up to 9 hours of sleep. That's plenty. Similarly, going from 4:30-5PM until 6AM without food is not a huge deal, especially since you spend most of that time sleeping (in fact, not eating immediately before sleep can be very beneficial for sleep quality).
- Dylan16807 8y ago
  Once you adjust to the schedule, it's fine. Before you adjust, having a meal at the wrong time and sleep at the wrong time can be somewhat equivalent to skipping both of them. If you ask me to fall asleep at 9PM without any previous setup, it will not happen, and I will not be rested at 6AM.
- virtualwhys 8y ago
  > going from 4:30-5PM until 6AM without food is not a huge deal In a Vipassana retreat it's actually no food after noon, so that would be 12PM to 7AM iirc (haven't done a 10-day retreat in many years). And it isn't a huge deal as you'll likely have other things on your "plate", such as a heaping portion of pain in the X (where X is your knees, back, buttocks, etc.) to keep you full :)
RichardCA 8y ago
The key characteristic of a cult is that the cult leader plays an active role in the indoctrination process. This seems to not be the case with the Goenka brand of Vipassana. TFA references Megan Vogt, not sure if anyone has posted this yet: https://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/06/york_county_suicide_megan_vogt.html https://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/06/york_county_suicide_me...

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

namlem 8y ago

There's never been any sleep or food deprivation at any retreat I've been to. They keep an early schedule because that's what they used to. The routine that parent described is basically normal for your typical early bird.

geomark 8y ago
It's basically the standard monk's schedule. Might be a shock for late sleepers used to eating and snacking throughout the day. Enough of a shock to set off some people. The Thais have an idiom for it which translates to "allergic to the robe". It happens to new monks sometimes. I saw it happen to one new monk in the group I ordained with. A few days after ordination I saw him running and yelling that the senior monks were trying to kill his family.
Dylan16807 8y ago
Going "hey non early bird, enforced early bird schedule NOW" is a shock to the system. It doesn't matter if it's normal to a completely different person.
lnanek2 8y ago
At least at the Dharma Drum Mountain retreats I've been to, it's true they have restrictions on what to eat and when. For example, garlic is contra indicated, offensive smell and supposedly makes you randy. Eating dinner is contraindicated, offered, but you'll notice the monks not eating it and just having tea or something. It's considered a medicine meal for the sick. Personally, I do feel more restful and ready for sleep at the end of the retreat days without dinner, but I do see how people not used to it could consider it food deprivation.

enraged_camel 8y ago

>>Lack of sleep, sudden change of routine, total immersion in a new mindset, and withholding food is the classic playbook of cult indoctrination. None of these: >>awake and breakfast at ~6AM, dinner at 4pm, lights out at 9PM (and no meal until breakfast the next day.) ..fit your criteria. Lights out at 9PM and waking up at 6AM gives up to 9 hours of sleep. That's plenty. Similarly, going from 4:30-5PM until 6AM without food is not a huge deal, especially since you spend most of that time sleeping (in fact, not eating immediately before sleep can be very beneficial for sleep quality).

Dylan16807 8y ago
Once you adjust to the schedule, it's fine. Before you adjust, having a meal at the wrong time and sleep at the wrong time can be somewhat equivalent to skipping both of them. If you ask me to fall asleep at 9PM without any previous setup, it will not happen, and I will not be rested at 6AM.
virtualwhys 8y ago
> going from 4:30-5PM until 6AM without food is not a huge deal In a Vipassana retreat it's actually no food after noon, so that would be 12PM to 7AM iirc (haven't done a 10-day retreat in many years). And it isn't a huge deal as you'll likely have other things on your "plate", such as a heaping portion of pain in the X (where X is your knees, back, buttocks, etc.) to keep you full :)

RichardCA 8y ago

The key characteristic of a cult is that the cult leader plays an active role in the indoctrination process. This seems to not be the case with the Goenka brand of Vipassana. TFA references Megan Vogt, not sure if anyone has posted this yet: https://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/06/york_county_suicide_megan_vogt.html https://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/06/york_county_suicide_me...