5 ms·

"Many spent an entire afternoon working on this thing without success. I hope they liked the challenge, but I’m also glad we didn’t have to use our internal res

by samd 16y ago

"Many spent an entire afternoon working on this thing without success. I hope they liked the challenge, but I’m also glad we didn’t have to use our internal resources reviewing their resume." What a great attitude. People who work hard and challenge themselves are worthless, they don't even deserve the time it takes to reject their application. A person like that would never be of any value to your company. I mean, you can't expect people to learn new things and grow professionally while on the job. If they don't already know everything then they are idiots that you want nothing to do with.

bdonlan 16y ago
Or perhaps they consider the skills needed to pass the test easily to be the bare minimum needed for the job, and anyone who can't pass it quickly isn't qualified (but hey, if you learned something from it, good for you!).
- raganwald 16y ago
  Could it be that the issue here is not whether they used a test to filter applicants, but the tone in which they describe their satisfaction with the result?
  - pig 16y ago
    Did you notice that you framed your statement as a question and thereby made it more persuasive?
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - zach 16y ago
      It turns out that it's more effective if you do.
      - joe_the_user 16y ago
        Maybe but I think this kind of thing actually turns on having an ear for which way the whole discussion is going.
        pig 16y ago
        He is referring to http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1162965 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1162965
  - joe_the_user 16y ago
    The tone of the post is pretty offensive, yes. But I've noticed a pattern, which is that folks who talk a lot about using these tests talk in this rather offensive way. It makes me think that companies that start off with these test have somewhat abusive attitude towards their employees - "we don't mind making you jump through hoops so we don't have to". Might not be a signal this is a great place to work. Maybe the company could promise to solve a puzzle I submitted if I solved their puzzle? It might seem fairer.
alexwestholm 16y ago
"If they don't already know everything then they are idiots that you want nothing to do with." Well, why should a startup want anything to do with someone who needs training? A startup needs to get as much as possible out of its resources, including individual employees and time. Given that, and all else being equal, it just makes more sense to hire the people with a decent understanding of HTTP for a position related to web development. It might not have been the most tactful way to say it, but I don't disagree with their premise.
- samd 16y ago
  I agree, the ideal candidate, particularly for a startup, would have a wealth of knowledge and experience in addition to the drive to challenge themselves and the ability to learn new things. The problem that startups face is that they can't usually hire those people because someone like Google or Facebook is paying them with truckloads of gold. Not always of course, sometimes startups can attract those people and it's great for them. But when they can't they must compromise; and if you have to choose between someone with knowledge and experience, and someone with drive and the ability to learn you're better served in the long run taking the latter. It will require some sacrifice in the beginning to bring them up to speed, but eventually they will overtake the candidate who stands still content with what they already know. The attitude that I see coming through in that post is that they value what people already know more than what people can learn, which I think is backwards. On top of that they just came across sounding like assholes. I could be wrong though, it's hard to read people's intention through text.
  - jacoblyles 16y ago
    Let us know how hiring mediocre programmers works out for your startup.
phlux 16y ago
In many architectural and engineering companies where CAD drafting is a core part of the job, the interview will often end with a drafting test. You are given a plan or even a set of requirements and are given typically 15-30 minutes to complete/get as far as you can. This is important because someone may speak well etc - but when it comes to actually completing work (which is typically done by billable hours) some people just wont have the speed or skill to produce the work product.
- joe_the_user 16y ago
  I would feel much better with a test at the end of an interview, once I know the interviewer has put in some effort seeing if I'm a fit in other ways, than a test merely to get the interview. Sure, tests are very logical as a filter if people are just resources to be filtered. If you expect to have a personal relationship with me, as a person, though, starting that relationship with indication that I'm just a resource is not good. This seems especially important in startup where you want to like your fellow teammates. Reciprocation is an important part of liking - psychologists say so!

by samd 16y ago

bdonlan 16y ago

Or perhaps they consider the skills needed to pass the test easily to be the bare minimum needed for the job, and anyone who can't pass it quickly isn't qualified (but hey, if you learned something from it, good for you!).

raganwald 16y ago
Could it be that the issue here is not whether they used a test to filter applicants, but the tone in which they describe their satisfaction with the result?
- pig 16y ago
  Did you notice that you framed your statement as a question and thereby made it more persuasive?
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - zach 16y ago
    It turns out that it's more effective if you do.
    - joe_the_user 16y ago
      Maybe but I think this kind of thing actually turns on having an ear for which way the whole discussion is going.
      - pig 16y ago
        He is referring to http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1162965 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1162965
- joe_the_user 16y ago
  The tone of the post is pretty offensive, yes. But I've noticed a pattern, which is that folks who talk a lot about using these tests talk in this rather offensive way. It makes me think that companies that start off with these test have somewhat abusive attitude towards their employees - "we don't mind making you jump through hoops so we don't have to". Might not be a signal this is a great place to work. Maybe the company could promise to solve a puzzle I submitted if I solved their puzzle? It might seem fairer.

alexwestholm 16y ago

"If they don't already know everything then they are idiots that you want nothing to do with." Well, why should a startup want anything to do with someone who needs training? A startup needs to get as much as possible out of its resources, including individual employees and time. Given that, and all else being equal, it just makes more sense to hire the people with a decent understanding of HTTP for a position related to web development. It might not have been the most tactful way to say it, but I don't disagree with their premise.

samd 16y ago
I agree, the ideal candidate, particularly for a startup, would have a wealth of knowledge and experience in addition to the drive to challenge themselves and the ability to learn new things. The problem that startups face is that they can't usually hire those people because someone like Google or Facebook is paying them with truckloads of gold. Not always of course, sometimes startups can attract those people and it's great for them. But when they can't they must compromise; and if you have to choose between someone with knowledge and experience, and someone with drive and the ability to learn you're better served in the long run taking the latter. It will require some sacrifice in the beginning to bring them up to speed, but eventually they will overtake the candidate who stands still content with what they already know. The attitude that I see coming through in that post is that they value what people already know more than what people can learn, which I think is backwards. On top of that they just came across sounding like assholes. I could be wrong though, it's hard to read people's intention through text.
- jacoblyles 16y ago
  Let us know how hiring mediocre programmers works out for your startup.

phlux 16y ago

In many architectural and engineering companies where CAD drafting is a core part of the job, the interview will often end with a drafting test. You are given a plan or even a set of requirements and are given typically 15-30 minutes to complete/get as far as you can. This is important because someone may speak well etc - but when it comes to actually completing work (which is typically done by billable hours) some people just wont have the speed or skill to produce the work product.

joe_the_user 16y ago
I would feel much better with a test at the end of an interview, once I know the interviewer has put in some effort seeing if I'm a fit in other ways, than a test merely to get the interview. Sure, tests are very logical as a filter if people are just resources to be filtered. If you expect to have a personal relationship with me, as a person, though, starting that relationship with indication that I'm just a resource is not good. This seems especially important in startup where you want to like your fellow teammates. Reciprocation is an important part of liking - psychologists say so!