6 ms·

PeerTube. What It Is, and What I Think It's Problems Are

48 points by valeg 8y ago

DoctorOetker 8y ago
can we design a system which provably can not be manipulated by the status quo (youtube and others) to cause these issues? in theory YT could be poisoning the well with porn, some of its own lesser random videos; in order to arrange copyright violations; analyze and exploit the lack of language filtering etc... I am not claiming the status quo is proven to be the cause of these issues, but I do claim that I know of no proof which proves the system to be resilient against such manipulation. Perhaps if one succeeds in designing a system that is provably resilient in some sense, the problems would automagically disappear?
- zzzcpan 8y ago
  Maybe let people create post moderated curated lists of things where anyone can post stuff and then let anyone to subscribe to those lists. If you stop being satisfied with curation of some lists, you unsubscribe and choose other lists.
anoncake 8y ago
> My next problem is with theft. There are a LOT of stolen YouTube videos. That's awful. I hope Youtube will quickly find replacements for those stolen videos.
- sschueller 8y ago
  Most videos on YouTube were of television and movies when they started. The whole YouTube stars and original content came much later.
  - JetSpiegel 8y ago
    Ironically you get Youtube videos on TV now, credited "YouTube".
  - Torgo 8y ago
    The videos were too short for piracy, they were capped at like five minutes long. I used to watch videos by a legit "youtube star" named Brookers. They also used to have reply videos, before it got clogged with spam. It used to be a lot more social.
- rjf72 8y ago
  Something I also find ironic is that I think most people uploading videos to YouTube would not actually mind if their videos were shared elsewhere so long as they were given proper credit. Most people are just uploading stuff they want as many people to see as possible. It's ironic because you already have free access to their videos, and they would give you permission to share elsewhere if you were able to ask, but in practice you can't. Getting the permission is burdensome, and the video that's displayed on YouTube is very liberally licensed to YouTube who will aggressively claim 'ownership' and reject any efforts to use it elsewhere. It'd be interesting if sites that offer user generated content for free (and only these sites) could not force content submitters to opt-in to non-free licenses - though users could opt in to such agreements. It's their right as a company to only publish under non-free licenses, but this behavior serves no real purpose other than to be obstructionist and anti-competitive.
  - jakelazaroff 8y ago
    > Something I also find ironic is that I think most people uploading videos to YouTube would not actually mind if their videos were shared elsewhere so long as they were given proper credit. This is the real question here. Are the creators getting proper credit? And for the ones who use it as a source of income, are they able to get paid the way they would on YouTube?
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - rjf72 8y ago
      That'd be the idea of leaving it up to the content creator to decide. If somebody believes they personally benefit from a walled garden then they would certainly want to opt out of free licensing. If they're more after just getting the content out there, then they'd want to stay on a free license. And I wouldn't just restrict this to video. Do you mind if I use your post elsewhere (with accreditation)? Probably not. I certainly don't. Yet in reality, it'd be unlawful for me to do so. It's copyrighted from the moment you write it. The only reason Hacker News can display it is because of this blurb from the terms on here: By uploading any User Content you hereby grant and will grant Y Combinator and its affiliated companies a nonexclusive, worldwide, royalty free, fully paid up, transferable, sublicensable, perpetual, irrevocable license to copy, display, upload, perform, distribute, store, modify and otherwise use your User Content for any Y Combinator-related purpose in any form, medium or technology now known or later developed. Transitioning to a free license would in no way directly negatively affect Hacker News. It certainly wouldn't negatively affect users. I expect most don't even realize what they write is copyrighted. And in any case users who want to avoid their comments being legally shared elsewhere could easily opt out.
fatjokes 8y ago
I'm a pretty tech savvy guy, and looking at the instructions on setting up a PeerTube instance (which I guess is required to even watch videos let alone upload) already turned me off. I can't imagine a creator wanting to film a few videos would want to learn the details of setting up and maintaining an instance.
- wutbrodo 8y ago
  I might be missing something, but I'm not sure where you got the idea that you need to run an instance to watch videos. I did a cursory Google with very little prior knowledge of peertube, and their main site seems to have links to instances (like. Framatube.org) where you can watch videos through a web browser.
- myself248 8y ago
  You're kidding, right? I'm watching a video on peertube right now and it took literally one click. Nothing to install, the user experience is just like YouTube. https://tube.4aem.com/videos/watch/42aee781-e58a-4ffe-829e-c6eaad24f9da https://tube.4aem.com/videos/watch/42aee781-e58a-4ffe-829e-c... For instance.
  - voltagex_ 8y ago
    Where are you in the world? What's your connection like? I'm on a 100 megabit downstream (95 nominal) connection in Australia and there are often videos on Peertube that won't load at all for me. YouTube is peered with a local Akamai node or with my ISP and is nearly always instant. The user experience is not like YouTube.
    - myself248 8y ago
      Michigan USA, cheapest package my cable provider offers, which is 30 down, 5 up. I'm fairly new to Peertube but I haven't found any that won't load. Sometimes they buffer a bit in the first moments, but then they're fine.
zaarn 8y ago
> I’d say more then 3/4 of the videos on most of the PeerTube instances I’ve visited are taken from YouTube. [...] It’s also a glaring admission that YouTube is better. I think it's different, it's less of an admission that YT is better and rather that all the creators are on YT at this moment. I think PeerTube needs to find a way to watch youtube videos on the instance (YTDL maybe?) and to monetize videos (Patreon link? Paypal? etc?)
- bsder 8y ago
  It's also an admission that your video will wind up on YouTube whether you want it to or not--so you need to put it up before anyone else. The only question about YouTube is whether you get the money or some scammy uploader does.
- mrfunkedude 8y ago
  I don't think we really disagree that much. What I meant was that taking YouTube's content is an admission as to where the good content is.
sschueller 8y ago
I am working on the android client incase anyone wants to contribute. Any help is appreciated. https://github.com/sschueller/peertube-android https://github.com/sschueller/peertube-android
Bouncingsoul1 8y ago
I really like the idea of peer to peer. Unfortunately, in my jurisdiction (Germany) this makes you the content provider, because you are also uploading to other peers. So wouldn't use without proper VPN or other means. I guess this makes it really hard for this kind of application to thrive, since in a lot of country these are in legal grey area.
zzzcpan 8y ago
> My next problem is with theft. Piracy is not theft. And we can't have it both ways. It's either centralization with censorship and all kinds of enforcement of rules or decentralization with resistance to censorship and piracy.
- mrfunkedude 8y ago
  You are exactly right that piracy is not theft. I chose to use terms that the common person reading it would understand. I know that this doesn't help people understand that piracy is not theft, but I have to pick and chose my battles.
mrfunkedude 8y ago
I just wanted to drop into the comments here and say "WOW". Thanks to Hacker News you guys gave me the most views my little blog has ever had in the year that it's been up. I plan on writing more about the Fediverse in the future. Thank you for your attention and the fun ride. I hope that you'll visit me again.

48 points by valeg 8y ago

can we design a system which provably can not be manipulated by the status quo (youtube and others) to cause these issues? in theory YT could be poisoning the well with porn, some of its own lesser random videos; in order to arrange copyright violations; analyze and exploit the lack of language filtering etc... I am not claiming the status quo is proven to be the cause of these issues, but I do claim that I know of no proof which proves the system to be resilient against such manipulation. Perhaps if one succeeds in designing a system that is provably resilient in some sense, the problems would automagically disappear?

zzzcpan 8y ago
Maybe let people create post moderated curated lists of things where anyone can post stuff and then let anyone to subscribe to those lists. If you stop being satisfied with curation of some lists, you unsubscribe and choose other lists.

anoncake 8y ago

> My next problem is with theft. There are a LOT of stolen YouTube videos. That's awful. I hope Youtube will quickly find replacements for those stolen videos.

sschueller 8y ago
Most videos on YouTube were of television and movies when they started. The whole YouTube stars and original content came much later.
- JetSpiegel 8y ago
  Ironically you get Youtube videos on TV now, credited "YouTube".
- Torgo 8y ago
  The videos were too short for piracy, they were capped at like five minutes long. I used to watch videos by a legit "youtube star" named Brookers. They also used to have reply videos, before it got clogged with spam. It used to be a lot more social.
rjf72 8y ago
Something I also find ironic is that I think most people uploading videos to YouTube would not actually mind if their videos were shared elsewhere so long as they were given proper credit. Most people are just uploading stuff they want as many people to see as possible. It's ironic because you already have free access to their videos, and they would give you permission to share elsewhere if you were able to ask, but in practice you can't. Getting the permission is burdensome, and the video that's displayed on YouTube is very liberally licensed to YouTube who will aggressively claim 'ownership' and reject any efforts to use it elsewhere. It'd be interesting if sites that offer user generated content for free (and only these sites) could not force content submitters to opt-in to non-free licenses - though users could opt in to such agreements. It's their right as a company to only publish under non-free licenses, but this behavior serves no real purpose other than to be obstructionist and anti-competitive.
- jakelazaroff 8y ago
  > Something I also find ironic is that I think most people uploading videos to YouTube would not actually mind if their videos were shared elsewhere so long as they were given proper credit. This is the real question here. Are the creators getting proper credit? And for the ones who use it as a source of income, are they able to get paid the way they would on YouTube?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - rjf72 8y ago
    That'd be the idea of leaving it up to the content creator to decide. If somebody believes they personally benefit from a walled garden then they would certainly want to opt out of free licensing. If they're more after just getting the content out there, then they'd want to stay on a free license. And I wouldn't just restrict this to video. Do you mind if I use your post elsewhere (with accreditation)? Probably not. I certainly don't. Yet in reality, it'd be unlawful for me to do so. It's copyrighted from the moment you write it. The only reason Hacker News can display it is because of this blurb from the terms on here: By uploading any User Content you hereby grant and will grant Y Combinator and its affiliated companies a nonexclusive, worldwide, royalty free, fully paid up, transferable, sublicensable, perpetual, irrevocable license to copy, display, upload, perform, distribute, store, modify and otherwise use your User Content for any Y Combinator-related purpose in any form, medium or technology now known or later developed. Transitioning to a free license would in no way directly negatively affect Hacker News. It certainly wouldn't negatively affect users. I expect most don't even realize what they write is copyrighted. And in any case users who want to avoid their comments being legally shared elsewhere could easily opt out.

fatjokes 8y ago

I'm a pretty tech savvy guy, and looking at the instructions on setting up a PeerTube instance (which I guess is required to even watch videos let alone upload) already turned me off. I can't imagine a creator wanting to film a few videos would want to learn the details of setting up and maintaining an instance.

wutbrodo 8y ago
I might be missing something, but I'm not sure where you got the idea that you need to run an instance to watch videos. I did a cursory Google with very little prior knowledge of peertube, and their main site seems to have links to instances (like. Framatube.org) where you can watch videos through a web browser.
myself248 8y ago
You're kidding, right? I'm watching a video on peertube right now and it took literally one click. Nothing to install, the user experience is just like YouTube. https://tube.4aem.com/videos/watch/42aee781-e58a-4ffe-829e-c6eaad24f9da https://tube.4aem.com/videos/watch/42aee781-e58a-4ffe-829e-c... For instance.
- voltagex_ 8y ago
  Where are you in the world? What's your connection like? I'm on a 100 megabit downstream (95 nominal) connection in Australia and there are often videos on Peertube that won't load at all for me. YouTube is peered with a local Akamai node or with my ISP and is nearly always instant. The user experience is not like YouTube.
  - myself248 8y ago
    Michigan USA, cheapest package my cable provider offers, which is 30 down, 5 up. I'm fairly new to Peertube but I haven't found any that won't load. Sometimes they buffer a bit in the first moments, but then they're fine.

zaarn 8y ago

> I’d say more then 3/4 of the videos on most of the PeerTube instances I’ve visited are taken from YouTube. [...] It’s also a glaring admission that YouTube is better. I think it's different, it's less of an admission that YT is better and rather that all the creators are on YT at this moment. I think PeerTube needs to find a way to watch youtube videos on the instance (YTDL maybe?) and to monetize videos (Patreon link? Paypal? etc?)

bsder 8y ago
It's also an admission that your video will wind up on YouTube whether you want it to or not--so you need to put it up before anyone else. The only question about YouTube is whether you get the money or some scammy uploader does.
mrfunkedude 8y ago
I don't think we really disagree that much. What I meant was that taking YouTube's content is an admission as to where the good content is.

sschueller 8y ago

I am working on the android client incase anyone wants to contribute. Any help is appreciated. https://github.com/sschueller/peertube-android https://github.com/sschueller/peertube-android

Bouncingsoul1 8y ago

I really like the idea of peer to peer. Unfortunately, in my jurisdiction (Germany) this makes you the content provider, because you are also uploading to other peers. So wouldn't use without proper VPN or other means. I guess this makes it really hard for this kind of application to thrive, since in a lot of country these are in legal grey area.

zzzcpan 8y ago

> My next problem is with theft. Piracy is not theft. And we can't have it both ways. It's either centralization with censorship and all kinds of enforcement of rules or decentralization with resistance to censorship and piracy.

mrfunkedude 8y ago
You are exactly right that piracy is not theft. I chose to use terms that the common person reading it would understand. I know that this doesn't help people understand that piracy is not theft, but I have to pick and chose my battles.

mrfunkedude 8y ago

I just wanted to drop into the comments here and say "WOW". Thanks to Hacker News you guys gave me the most views my little blog has ever had in the year that it's been up. I plan on writing more about the Fediverse in the future. Thank you for your attention and the fun ride. I hope that you'll visit me again.