4 ms·

>Sure, a keylogger could eventually get all of the passwords I use on the regular, but it couldn't get literally every password I have and in a nice, neat forma

by xoa 8y ago

>Sure, a keylogger could eventually get all of the passwords I use on the regular, but it couldn't get literally every password I have and in a nice, neat format along with where the passwords are used. But passwords aren't just about you, they're about the server they're also stored on too. Without a password manager, how do you propose remembering unique fully random passwords for dozens to hundreds of services over the course of decades? And they must still be easy enough to enter that most people will actually use it. And also be trivial to change at will, for when (not if) the password database is compromised. And in fact you directly bring up the problem of that being worse for services you use extremely infrequently. So if you use it frequently the keylogger gains it anyway, and if you don't use it frequently then what's your usable system again? Also, are not the most important things you want taken the least also the ones that tend to be used the most frequently? And with access to your email and in fact all communication services used on that system you don't see how an attacker wouldn't just be able to "I forgot my password" for many if not most services? >Reading the current password from memory = keylogger, I'm not worried about that. You're not worried about your system being rooted? I'd say you have an awfully different set of priorities when it comes to security then most of the world even beyond HN.

spudlyo 8y ago
A notebook and pencil in your desk drawer solves this problem reasonably well if you're patient. In some ways that is more secure than having all the passwords stored where an attacker can grab them from the comfort of their living room.
- sleepybrett 8y ago
  .. and when you are trying to log into one of those accounts when you are away from your desk drawer?
  - spudlyo 8y ago
    You wait 'til you get home? Personally, I use 1Password, but I have a friend who swears by the notebook approach. He also caries a feature phone and uses a desktop computer, which makes it a lot more practical.
    - selestify 8y ago
      What are you doing to do if your home burns down? If it's an emergency and you can't wait until you get home? If industrial espionage efforts involve stealing a notebook from your home?
      - qrbLPHiKpiux 8y ago
        Back up, my man! 3-2-1. 3 copies, 2 local different media, one off site. If your data's that important, secure the offsite with an attorney.
        scarejunba 8y ago
        If you want people to not have your information you just turned this into multiple SPOF situation. Now I have to secure everything.
        prophesi 8y ago
        There's no such thing as a multiple SPOF; that's called a multiple point of failure, which is a good thing. Security is a battle of convenience. If your threat model is state actors, then it may well be worth the inconvenience to have your data secured in several different locations, running Tails OS on everything, scrapping your smartphone, and so on.
        ergothus 8y ago
        > that's called a multiple point of failure, which is a good thing. Totally leaving aside the argument you were in - multiple single points of failure are bad, and very different than the opposite of a single point of failure. Having a SPOF means one thing will take you down. Having multiple SPOF means any one of those can take you down. Lack of any SPOF means no one thing will take you down, it will require multiple problems. 3 distinct options.
        8y ago
  - takeda 8y ago
    Take photo of your note and store it on imgur /s
kaens 8y ago
> how do you propose remembering unique fully random passwords for dozens to hundreds of services over the course of decades? not fully random, but: make up an algorithm that uses pieces of data that you know you can derive from some superficialities of anything you need a password for plus some some obfuscation function and some other data that you can derive or remember that is not related to the thing you need a password for. e.g: the name of the site and the month you signed up in leet speek, rot-5'd and alternating letters, interspersed with symbols at some period related to a rhythm you like. doing this gives you relatively strong passwords that you can reliably recreate while not needing to memorize them, that do not have an obvious pattern to them even if looking at them in mass, that have a very low chance of collision. you can remember a fairly complex recipe pretty easily ;) depending on where your passwords are and what they're for, this might be preferable than storing them in one app that can compromise every password you have. either way, someone only needs your important pw once. use multi-auth.
- NikolaeVarius 8y ago
  And then what happens when that has to change every 30 days?
  - kaens 8y ago
    for the example above, you could chunk-rotate, change the rot-degree you use as obfuscation or have other variants of your algorithm. there's a point somewhere a bit faster than monthly-expiration where I would consider using a store and random gen in situations where i would otherwise not. really depends on you, what it's for, and what risks you need to care about the most.
- gruez 8y ago
  What you're basically describing is no-sync password managers[1], with all of its disadvantages (password changes/rotation, username storage, etc) but also with security by obscurity instead of a proven KDF. [1] I'm not sure what they're called exactly, but basically all you do is enter a password and it generates your password using your password + site + KDF.
oarsinsync 8y ago
> And in fact you directly bring up the problem of that being worse for services you use extremely infrequently. So if you use it frequently the keylogger gains it anyway, and if you don't use it frequently then what's your usable system again? Also, are not the most important things you want taken the least also the ones that tend to be used the most frequently? I don’t login to my online banking from my computer very often, nor do I login to government / tax services frequently. I’d be pretty upset if the credentials for these things (especially in the case of some banks, the second password required to perform any kind of transfer operation) got compromised simply because my entire password database got dumped from machine memory without having been used.

by xoa 8y ago

spudlyo 8y ago

A notebook and pencil in your desk drawer solves this problem reasonably well if you're patient. In some ways that is more secure than having all the passwords stored where an attacker can grab them from the comfort of their living room.

sleepybrett 8y ago
.. and when you are trying to log into one of those accounts when you are away from your desk drawer?
- spudlyo 8y ago
  You wait 'til you get home? Personally, I use 1Password, but I have a friend who swears by the notebook approach. He also caries a feature phone and uses a desktop computer, which makes it a lot more practical.
  - selestify 8y ago
    What are you doing to do if your home burns down? If it's an emergency and you can't wait until you get home? If industrial espionage efforts involve stealing a notebook from your home?
    - qrbLPHiKpiux 8y ago
      Back up, my man! 3-2-1. 3 copies, 2 local different media, one off site. If your data's that important, secure the offsite with an attorney.
      - scarejunba 8y ago
        If you want people to not have your information you just turned this into multiple SPOF situation. Now I have to secure everything.
        prophesi 8y ago
        There's no such thing as a multiple SPOF; that's called a multiple point of failure, which is a good thing. Security is a battle of convenience. If your threat model is state actors, then it may well be worth the inconvenience to have your data secured in several different locations, running Tails OS on everything, scrapping your smartphone, and so on.
        ergothus 8y ago
        > that's called a multiple point of failure, which is a good thing. Totally leaving aside the argument you were in - multiple single points of failure are bad, and very different than the opposite of a single point of failure. Having a SPOF means one thing will take you down. Having multiple SPOF means any one of those can take you down. Lack of any SPOF means no one thing will take you down, it will require multiple problems. 3 distinct options.
        8y ago
- takeda 8y ago
  Take photo of your note and store it on imgur /s

kaens 8y ago

> how do you propose remembering unique fully random passwords for dozens to hundreds of services over the course of decades? not fully random, but: make up an algorithm that uses pieces of data that you know you can derive from some superficialities of anything you need a password for plus some some obfuscation function and some other data that you can derive or remember that is not related to the thing you need a password for. e.g: the name of the site and the month you signed up in leet speek, rot-5'd and alternating letters, interspersed with symbols at some period related to a rhythm you like. doing this gives you relatively strong passwords that you can reliably recreate while not needing to memorize them, that do not have an obvious pattern to them even if looking at them in mass, that have a very low chance of collision. you can remember a fairly complex recipe pretty easily ;) depending on where your passwords are and what they're for, this might be preferable than storing them in one app that can compromise every password you have. either way, someone only needs your important pw once. use multi-auth.

NikolaeVarius 8y ago
And then what happens when that has to change every 30 days?
- kaens 8y ago
  for the example above, you could chunk-rotate, change the rot-degree you use as obfuscation or have other variants of your algorithm. there's a point somewhere a bit faster than monthly-expiration where I would consider using a store and random gen in situations where i would otherwise not. really depends on you, what it's for, and what risks you need to care about the most.
gruez 8y ago
What you're basically describing is no-sync password managers[1], with all of its disadvantages (password changes/rotation, username storage, etc) but also with security by obscurity instead of a proven KDF. [1] I'm not sure what they're called exactly, but basically all you do is enter a password and it generates your password using your password + site + KDF.

oarsinsync 8y ago

> And in fact you directly bring up the problem of that being worse for services you use extremely infrequently. So if you use it frequently the keylogger gains it anyway, and if you don't use it frequently then what's your usable system again? Also, are not the most important things you want taken the least also the ones that tend to be used the most frequently? I don’t login to my online banking from my computer very often, nor do I login to government / tax services frequently. I’d be pretty upset if the credentials for these things (especially in the case of some banks, the second password required to perform any kind of transfer operation) got compromised simply because my entire password database got dumped from machine memory without having been used.