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While I agree that the valuation can rapidly fluctuate. Bitcoin is successfully storing a large amount of value in a distributed manner. More than any other sys

While I agree that the valuation can rapidly fluctuate. Bitcoin is successfully storing a large amount of value in a distributed manner. More than any other system that exists. There is a huge incentive to create transaction fraud with that much money on the line and Bitcoin is working and intended and acting as a distributed, transaction fraud free public ledger with a trade-able currency.

darkpuma 8y ago
> "Bitcoin is successfully storing a large amount of value in a distributed manner. More than any other system that exists." No it isn't. The market cap of bitcoin, which is a bullshit number anyway as already explained, is dwarfed by other forms of distributed wealth storage such as (but certainly not limited to) old fashioned pieces of gold. Gold is distributed. If you revise your assertion to be distributed and digital then perhaps you're correct. But the more qualifications you tack on, the less impressive your claims to fame become. Don't bother mistaking me for some sort of gold bug either. Real Estate is another form of distributed wealth storage that blows bitcoin's pathetic market cap out of the water.
- malvosenior 8y ago
  Both gold and real estate require massive amount of physical force to secure. Nation state level force and law and order. Bitcoin just needs electricity.
- comboy 8y ago
  Real estate is likely the best storage of value there is. It's only distributed across governments though. When you own a piece of land you actually trust your government to protect your right to it. Gold is fantastic. Apart from its physical properties, we all agreed to assign value to it and it's been working for thousands of years. But wouldn't it be great to have gold in a digital form? Something easily divisible and transferable, yet as gold is, not dependent for its value on some 3rd party? Something that is truly yours not just IOU. Which can keep value. Forget about Bitcoin, how would you envision something like this? Apart from technological problems, we have a problem of initial trust and distribution. Please stop here and think for a moment, this is a hard and interesting problem. I'm not saying you can solve it with a few minutes of thinking but just after a few moments some things clarify. Now imagine we do have it. We did it. Because it would be a cool future where we do have this digital gold. Is it a safe storage of value? What if some better digital gold 2.0 comes along? If people would prefer to move their wealth to it then the 1.0 would become less desirable, so its value should drop. But if it does, then it's not a good storage of value after all. You can devise a system in which 1.0 tokens can be exchanged to 2.0 but then you cannot change the initial distribution. If all that thinking is not enough, it is interesting to ponder impact of an actual perfect storage of value system on society. Wealth can be leveraged to generate more of it. Not that it's something completely new, we had a few close enough matches throughout the history. That's what most wars are about. Although it's easier to go get something if you know where it is.
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    I sympathize with the dream, but the dream is very far from the reality bitcoin has realized.
  - 0db532a0 8y ago
    You may be interested to learn about the commodity derivatives market.
- DINKDINK 8y ago
  >[Bitcoin] is dwarfed by other forms of distributed wealth storage such as [S.A.] old fashioned pieces of gold Hi can you let me how I can immigrate out of my country with $10e6 without thieves at the airport taking my wealth? If we can figure this out, man bitcoin is totally KIA. Also can you let me how how I can costlessly assay gold when I accept it as payment? or make the supply of gold only dependent only on time and not how it currently is (price and time)? Whenever the price of gold goes up, they mine more of it :C this makes its Store of Value property worse than bitcoin. Looking forward to your reply and our future endeavor together. /s
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    > Hi can you let me how I can immigrate out of my country with $10e6 without thieves at the airport taking my wealth? If we can figure this out, man bitcoin is totally KIA. You're supposing that the vast majority of people using bitcoin are using it to exfiltrate money out of countries. That niche application is very far from the reality of what most bitcoin advocates are doing. But yes, digital exfiltration may be easier than physical smuggling. That's supposing a lot about what forms of control are implemented in that country at at it's borders.
    - topmonk 8y ago
      > But yes, digital exfiltration may be easier than physical smuggling. That's supposing a lot about what forms of control are implemented in that country at at it's borders. Given that some forms of cryptocurrency can be stored using only a memorized passphrase and nothing else, (ie. a brain wallet), it's pretty much guaranteed that getting cryptocurrency put of the country would be easier.
      - darkpuma 8y ago
        You're supposing the government doesn't know you bought those bitcoins (or at the least doesn't know that you are somehow hiding a lot of money without knowing the details) and isn't willing to beat it out of you. Most cryptoanarchists are deluded nerds who would fold in less than 5 minutes of waterboarding. Do you think these thugs who are willing to look up your ass for a few pieces of gold aren't willing to violate you in other ways? Of course you don't believe that, you've merely failed to seriously consider that possibility. The only reason smuggling BTC sometimes works right now is because they're not looking for it.

darkpuma 8y ago

> "Bitcoin is successfully storing a large amount of value in a distributed manner. More than any other system that exists." No it isn't. The market cap of bitcoin, which is a bullshit number anyway as already explained, is dwarfed by other forms of distributed wealth storage such as (but certainly not limited to) old fashioned pieces of gold. Gold is distributed. If you revise your assertion to be distributed and digital then perhaps you're correct. But the more qualifications you tack on, the less impressive your claims to fame become. Don't bother mistaking me for some sort of gold bug either. Real Estate is another form of distributed wealth storage that blows bitcoin's pathetic market cap out of the water.

malvosenior 8y ago
Both gold and real estate require massive amount of physical force to secure. Nation state level force and law and order. Bitcoin just needs electricity.
comboy 8y ago
Real estate is likely the best storage of value there is. It's only distributed across governments though. When you own a piece of land you actually trust your government to protect your right to it. Gold is fantastic. Apart from its physical properties, we all agreed to assign value to it and it's been working for thousands of years. But wouldn't it be great to have gold in a digital form? Something easily divisible and transferable, yet as gold is, not dependent for its value on some 3rd party? Something that is truly yours not just IOU. Which can keep value. Forget about Bitcoin, how would you envision something like this? Apart from technological problems, we have a problem of initial trust and distribution. Please stop here and think for a moment, this is a hard and interesting problem. I'm not saying you can solve it with a few minutes of thinking but just after a few moments some things clarify. Now imagine we do have it. We did it. Because it would be a cool future where we do have this digital gold. Is it a safe storage of value? What if some better digital gold 2.0 comes along? If people would prefer to move their wealth to it then the 1.0 would become less desirable, so its value should drop. But if it does, then it's not a good storage of value after all. You can devise a system in which 1.0 tokens can be exchanged to 2.0 but then you cannot change the initial distribution. If all that thinking is not enough, it is interesting to ponder impact of an actual perfect storage of value system on society. Wealth can be leveraged to generate more of it. Not that it's something completely new, we had a few close enough matches throughout the history. That's what most wars are about. Although it's easier to go get something if you know where it is.
- darkpuma 8y ago
  I sympathize with the dream, but the dream is very far from the reality bitcoin has realized.
- 0db532a0 8y ago
  You may be interested to learn about the commodity derivatives market.
DINKDINK 8y ago
>[Bitcoin] is dwarfed by other forms of distributed wealth storage such as [S.A.] old fashioned pieces of gold Hi can you let me how I can immigrate out of my country with $10e6 without thieves at the airport taking my wealth? If we can figure this out, man bitcoin is totally KIA. Also can you let me how how I can costlessly assay gold when I accept it as payment? or make the supply of gold only dependent only on time and not how it currently is (price and time)? Whenever the price of gold goes up, they mine more of it :C this makes its Store of Value property worse than bitcoin. Looking forward to your reply and our future endeavor together. /s
- darkpuma 8y ago
  > Hi can you let me how I can immigrate out of my country with $10e6 without thieves at the airport taking my wealth? If we can figure this out, man bitcoin is totally KIA. You're supposing that the vast majority of people using bitcoin are using it to exfiltrate money out of countries. That niche application is very far from the reality of what most bitcoin advocates are doing. But yes, digital exfiltration may be easier than physical smuggling. That's supposing a lot about what forms of control are implemented in that country at at it's borders.
  - topmonk 8y ago
    > But yes, digital exfiltration may be easier than physical smuggling. That's supposing a lot about what forms of control are implemented in that country at at it's borders. Given that some forms of cryptocurrency can be stored using only a memorized passphrase and nothing else, (ie. a brain wallet), it's pretty much guaranteed that getting cryptocurrency put of the country would be easier.
    - darkpuma 8y ago
      You're supposing the government doesn't know you bought those bitcoins (or at the least doesn't know that you are somehow hiding a lot of money without knowing the details) and isn't willing to beat it out of you. Most cryptoanarchists are deluded nerds who would fold in less than 5 minutes of waterboarding. Do you think these thugs who are willing to look up your ass for a few pieces of gold aren't willing to violate you in other ways? Of course you don't believe that, you've merely failed to seriously consider that possibility. The only reason smuggling BTC sometimes works right now is because they're not looking for it.