11 ms·

What It's Like to Be a Black Mathematician

110 points by mykowebhn 8y ago

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
crimsonalucard 8y ago
As an Asian in math I suffer from racism as well.
- lokidokiro 8y ago
  In the US, it's socially acceptable to discriminate against white and Asian people. As a result, whites and Asians are victimized by racism on a far greater scale than any other racial group. The perpetrators of such racism justify their actions by saying your ancestors were well off so it's fine to mistreat you.
- crimsonalucard 8y ago
  See I was voted down. Racism.
  - dang 8y ago
    Please don't break the site guidelines by going on about downvoting. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html The problem with your earlier comment is that it was unsubstantive. Grand claims in unsubstantive comments on inflammatory topics are particularly problematic.
ml2019 8y ago
> Dr. Goins’s colleagues at Purdue said his receipt of tenure and subsequent promotion to full professor signaled the university’s willingness to overlook a sparse research portfolio in light of his extraordinary work with undergraduates, as well as the summer programs he organized for minority students. > But Dr. Goins said he was looking for something else. “I just never really felt respected,” he said. It actually sounds like he was promoted to a position he's unqualified for, perhaps because of diversity and inclusion initiatives. His colleagues very likely understand that and are treating him differently because of his skillset and not because of his identity. This is the unintended consequence of hiring and promoting based on identity instead of merit.
- jellicle 8y ago
  Commenter looks at a field that hires only white men, and excludes everyone else, and sees a meritocracy. If an single extremely competent, outstandingly-qualified black man is hired, it's because of his identity. Remarkable.
  - thosakwe 8y ago
    For GP, and for those in other comments who were confused about the phrase "token," this is it in a nutshell - having people doubt your accomplishments, and assume that the reason you're in a position is not because you're qualified, but because you have a specific identity.
    - afiori 8y ago
      there is another side; the one were companies actually hire people for numbers (I am not claiming they are common). for example in china there is a market of "white guy in suit walking around the office looking busy when visitors are present". I don't want to diminish your point as it is indeed a serious problem, but it is not the whole picture.
  - afiori 8y ago
    In my country many university apply for European grants, one easy way to get more points is to include minorities in you research group, if by some chance you get a female immigrant african disabled student you are going to want to include her in every project you ever have. The above commenter saw a place where from above there were incentives to hire minorities, it is not impossible to believe that at some point an administrator claimed "we need a diversity hire in the next 6 month" and they hired the only matching one. Also the bigotry of low expectation is a real thing, where some people treat minorities as essentially stupid by default and then get magically surprised when they are normally competent. I don't know if I agree with the commenter above, but the incentives of affirmative action and diversity hire are sometimes problematic. (just for clarity, my personal opinion is to assume that everyone that got a job deserved it. Even if it is obviously false sometimes it is the most stable one, we should keep our culture in a place where that is a reasonable assumption)
eruci 8y ago
"Fewer than 1 percent of doctorates in math are awarded to African-Americans" So? We have affirmative action policies for university admissions. If an Asian needs an "X" SAT score, and an African-American "X - δ" to enter university, yet, fewer of them make it to the higher levels, what do we do? Have different standards for awarding doctorates based on race? Western civilization is in crisis because of these social experimental policies undermining its original meritocratic competitive default mode. So, the real question is, where/when at some point does this madness stop?
- burkaman 8y ago
  > what do we do? Good question. It's a very hard problem, and requires a lot of thought and self-reflection to even begin to solve. Simple university admission policies will not solve such a broad social issue, as you've noted. > original meritocratic competitive default mode Can you explain this? When/where did this meritocratic system exist?
  - crowdpleaser 8y ago
    Meritocracy was the default for institutions so long as someone could enter the competition. The aberrations were for nepotism/ cronyism but those appear to be relatively limited. I can recommend some books about how the German university system worked or how the British civil service worked or how the Dutch trade houses worked if you’re interested. Today isn’t a perfect meritocracy, the last wasn’t either, but modern affirmative action is unprecedented in western civilization for allowing the proliferation of non-maximally competent people to rise. I can also recommend some stuff about the disasters of affirmative action policies in South Africa under black (mis)management
    - tptacek 8y ago
      The historical British civil service is your prime example of a superior meritocracy?
    - coldtea 8y ago
      >Meritocracy was the default for institutions so long as someone could enter the competition. The aberrations were for nepotism/ cronyism but those appear to be relatively limited. Limited? Weren't universities merely the place were nobility and rich heirs went to study to get back and lead their inherited empires?
skh 8y ago
EDIT: Got rid of part of my post that had enough information in it that could be tied to people in real life. -------- It doesn't help that West Lafayette is a very racist place in my experience. I'm white and a native speaker of American English. On my first day of teaching at Purdue I introduced myself to the class and a student asked, "Are you an American? Do you speak English?" At the time West Lafayette had a confusing road system for a small town. Lots of 5-way intersections and one way streets. I was late to a dental appointment and apologized to the dentist's secretary. I explained that I had a hard time figuring out how to get to the place. She responded, "Yeah, the road system here was designed by a drunk Indian." I'm certain living in Indiana exacerbated the situation.
- avip 8y ago
  It is also not helping that there actually is such a thing as "token X". A less discussed side effect of affirmative action.
  - pvg 8y ago
    I don't think that's the thing that's 'not helping', here.
    - Legogris 8y ago
      There is such a thing as the "token gaijin" at Japanese companies - the foreigner who can show to visitors how international company this is. Generally very little influence or path of progress. Also just the knowledge of this phenomenon can cause self-doubt for the individual. White people office workers Japan are of course not the same as black mathematicians in the U.S., but I don't believe that it's not contributing to the problem if it occurs.
      - pvg 8y ago
        I just don't think 'my prejudices are actually true' is the conclusion to draw from 'tokenism exists', that is all.
willpiers 8y ago
I fail to see how either of your anecdotes constitute racism
- porphyrogene 8y ago
  > I fail You got that part right. You have a moral obligation to be aware of racial discrimination and its calling cards.
- paulcole 8y ago
  > Yeah, the road system here was designed by a drunk Indian What does including Indian add here? If the (alleged) drunk was white would the person have said, "drunk white guy"?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - skh 8y ago
    I'm assuming this is a genuine question on your part. I would suggest reading up on common stereotypes of the native peoples in the U.S. Native Americans did not design the road system in West Lafayette. Whites did. The person making the remark is in essence saying: Yes the road system is really fucked up. It's so bad that I can't give a real explanation for it so I jokingly say a drunk Indian had to have done it because that's the only thing that can make sense.
    - BookmarkSaver 8y ago
      For some reason I assumed that it was referring to subcontinent Indians, and was slightly confused because I don't consider it racist to point out that their road system is absolutely atrocious.
      - stcredzero 8y ago
        My first thought was that it was a non-sequitur, but that it involved subcontinent Indians. I find it ironic that people who are apparently calling out one kind of bigotry in this thread are then playing on stereotypes of what people who live in certain places are like. As a nonwhite who actually has been racially bashed and who has seen people overcome bigotry through their basic humanity, I always want to warn everyone that the problem isn't people from a particular place, people of a particular ethnicity, or people grouped by any surface characteristic, chosen, indelible or in between. The problem is groupthink, and the dark emotions that can come about because of it. The moment you start imputing thoughts, feelings, and emotions to people with scant evidence, you have taken a misstep. (1) You have succumbed to groupthink. If you would fight bigotry, it first behooves you to actively eliminate your own bigotry. It's then your duty not to fall into the very patterns you're supposed to fight. (1) -- Also, if you start condemning people because you imagine you know what they are thinking and feeling, and you believe they are lying to you, then you set up a situation where no one can prove their innocence, and no one trusts anyone else anymore. We have historical accounts of such times and places. Often, such epistemological catastrophes accompany inter-ethnic and inter-sectarian violence and atrocities.
ousta 8y ago
I always struggle to see people victim of racism identify themselve only through their race. . “I have been the only one in most of the universities I’ve been to — the only student or faculty in the mathematics department.” “To say that I feel isolated,” I have always been different looking than other people around me and never identified myself through my race but through my interests and undertakings in life. I find it sad that even people with PhDs think all people of the same race are the same and feel isolated when they re not around same race people while for me being a mathematician surrounded by mathematicians should be the only thing that matters.
- lordnacho 8y ago
  But this is not necessarily a matter of choice. If everyone else thinks race is a thing, you need to at least think about it, regardless of whether you believe in it too. I'd like to think the way you do ("my interests and undertakings in life"), and mostly I do, but if I find myself in a society where everyone has a label, I need to consider my label. To the point where it might make sense for me to have others with that label near me.
Leader2light 8y ago
We spend so much of our time in the western white world, worrying and thinking about minority issues. I'm honestly sick of it. What a huge waste of time and effort. Meanwhile, China is just sailing by the west. Diversity is not the future, diversity is divisive.
tyler- 8y ago
People from poor demographics in general are discriminated against in various ways. Want to learn math but come from a poor neighborhood? Good luck. You’re probably locked in a school system with bad teachers and few if any math courses beyond calculus. Even if you’re talented you probably know 0 people that can help you. Now your growth is prematurely stunted. That kid from a better off family that shows talent in math? Probably get recognized for it from an early age and gets tutors and advanced training. Probably already completed proof based courses in analysis, algebra by the time they completed high school. They get into better schools and have ahead start. Even if they are just as talented as you the poor kid.
- r_smart 8y ago
  >Even if you’re talented you probably know 0 people that can help you. Now your growth is prematurely stunted. This was my experience, and was challenging. At the time I was more inclined to the arts, but the problem is the same. Who can you talk to about the books you're reading (my particular passion)?
- noobermin 8y ago
  This I guess is exactly what I was thinking. As a legacy from segregation (and ultimately, slavery), African Americans still are disproportionately poor. This explains the macro-statistic, that only 1% of Math PhD's are given to African Americans. I don't doubt there is some personal bias that is at play too. As a PhD who isn't Black but isn't white or Asian, I face it too, but the personal challenges I face paled in comparison to the structural and purely economic challenges I had to overcome.
  - afiori 8y ago
    From this point of view it would be interesting to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of race-based affirmative action and income-based affirmative action.
- adamnemecek 8y ago
  > Probably already completed proof based courses in analysis, algebra by the time they completed high school. Is this common?
kauffj 8y ago
> For the record, here is a small sample of other communities where black people are strongly underrepresented: > Runners (3%). Bikers (6%). Furries (2%). Wall Street senior management (2%). Occupy Wall Street protesters (unknown but low, one source says 1.6% but likely an underestimate). BDSM (unknown but low) Tea Party members (1%). American Buddhists (~2%). Bird watchers (4%). Environmentalists (various but universally low). Wikipedia contributors (unknown but low). Atheists (2%). Vegetarian activists (maybe 1-5%). Yoga enthusiasts (unknown but low). College baseball players (5%). Swimmers (2%). Fanfiction readers (2%). Unitarian Universalists (1%). > Can you see what all of these groups have in common? > No. No you can’t. If there’s some hidden factor uniting Wall Street senior management and furries, it is way beyond any of our pay grades. > But what I noticed when I looked up those numbers was that in every case, the people involved have come up with a pat explanation that sounds perfectly plausible right up until you compare it to any other group, at which point it bursts into flame Excerpt from Black People Less Likely: https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/02/11/black-people-less-likely/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/02/11/black-people-less-like...
- coldtea 8y ago
  Most of these should be a sign of pride for black people that most of them aren't... Runners, furries, Wall Street senior management, American Buddhists, Bird watchers, Environmentalists, Wikipedia contributors, Atheists, Vegetarian activists (maybe 1-5%). Yoga enthusiasts, fanfiction readers, unitarian Universalists, and so on.... Obnoxious appropriations of foreign cultures, middle class pastimes, infantilization, and virtue-signaling, the lot of them... (Imagine what Bill Hicks would have thought about each of those activities, and imagine how impressed they'd be by a class of people uninterested in such BS)
- iguy 8y ago
  I would bet that in almost every one of those categories, Americans of New England descent are over-represented compared to people of Christian Italian/German/Polish descent. (With the least money on the sporting ones.)
  - afiori 8y ago
lotaezenwa 8y ago
This mathematician is not stupid. I would be inclined to believe he understands statistics/anecdotes/academia better than you reading this right now. We only get a small glimpse into the intricacies of his world view and life, and this is what he has chosen to share. This is the story he is telling. Ask yourself why someone in this position would tell this story based on years of lived experience. Do you believe him? Or do you believe keyboard warriors in some of the comments under this article diminishing his perspective with "but what about"-ism and the like? I am black and studied math in school. The 'leaky pipeline' exists to some extent. Racist people exist even if you, reading this, are not racist.
- python_gt_r 8y ago
  Also by definition, judgement biases underlying racism are common across people. There's no more racism in whites or republicans, rationalization is different. Splitting the world in racist and no racist is simplistic and poor argumentation.
  - lotaezenwa 8y ago
    > by definition judgement[sic] biases underlying racism are common across people 0) We never agreed on the definition of "judgment biases", so please do not use the phrase "by definition". Your definition differs from mine.
    - python_gt_r 8y ago
      A very high percent of any race dates only inside their racial/ethnic group. And so on. It's natural preferences. Some people call it racism, specially if it's pointing at white people. I call it your life your choice.
      - helen___keller 8y ago
        >A very high percent of any race dates only inside their racial/ethnic group. And so on. It's natural preferences. Are you making this claim or is there evidence that supports it? Would be interested to see a study on that
cc81 8y ago
I don't doubt that there absolutely exists prejudices in this case but I also wonder how many will also be created by one self in that situation just because how the human mind works. I used to have quite a lot of acne and it really got to my head. It of course did affect how people treated me, especially girls, because acne is not very attractive however after a while I probably read into things way more than I should. That people who were treating me the way they normally would or just happened to treat me badly because they had a bad day did treat me that way because of my acne. Being the lone black guy in a research institution in a country like the US with that kind of history must be easy to start falling down that hole. Especially if there also exists people who are prejudiced or racist and expresses that as well.
- lotaezenwa 8y ago
  So you believe your experience with acne could be a lot like people experiencing racism?
  - barberousse 8y ago
    I cannot believe you got downvoted into grey text already despite how obviously terrible this person's comparison is. Not to mention the insinuation that the experience of racism may just be the spotlight effect. Literally the most general and ubiquitous claim you see made whenever topics around racial experience come up.
  - rudedogg 8y ago
    I feel like your comment is disingenuous. He's saying that we all feel slighted, and perhaps cases where minorities feel slighted, is just that. A case mentioned from the article that gave me this vibe: > “A couple of them were at a board writing something,” he recalled. “I went over and asked, ‘What are you guys working on?’” > “We’re too far in to catch you up,” he said he was told. I know personally, I used to feel very "in tune" to how people perceived me. I read a book on body language when I was younger, and would constantly analyze how people moved ("head tilted, they think this is interesting", "arms crossed, they're defensive"), etc. It went further than that - analyzing language etc. But, there were some cases were I was certain someone was being an asshole to me - but I learned I was wrong. Now I'm much more restrictive in how I pass judgement on someone. I hope others give me that benefit, because I constantly find myself thinking of how something I said in conversation could be misunderstood, etc. Communication is hard.
mykowebhn 8y ago
When I was in primary school in Canada, I was able to get mostly good grades without really trying. I admit I was a little lazy, and my laziness would result in the occasional bad grade. What I remember is that I would always be scolded by my teachers for not doing well. A few of my friends, however, who were black would never be scolded for not doing well at school. The point I'm trying to get across is that racism can be quite subtle and baked into things we don't even realize, like the expectations we have of other people. I'm not sure how well I would've done in life if people implicitly expected me to fail.
lordnacho 8y ago
The thing with prejudice is nobody will ever admit to being prejudiced. All you can do is piece it together. Sometimes your working hypothesis is that it's just noise, other times it's prejudice. I brought in a woman to work on a project once, and it was awful. Despite her doing objectively better work than what was available before, my partners decided everything she did needed criticism. Never anything substantial, just pretend criticism meant to look like they knew what they were talking about. And one of them wanted veto on all the work, despite knowing very little about it. They questioned whether she'd have been on the project if she didn't know me, which is pretty out there given she did this for a living for some very well known firms. Then they called her something offensive in front of her, and when I called them out on it, they pretended it was a joke intended to make her feel like part of the team. Can you ever conclude what people's true motivations are? Not really. Could someone genuinely have felt that some person's work was substandard, they didn't get the job legitimately, and could they screw up some office banter? Sure. It took me a long time to think this through, but in the end it misogyny seemed to be the only answer. We'd worked with plenty of incompetents before without saying much, and hired plenty of people (all guys) through the friends network. We'd never had anyone get bullied like that in the office, though. Story got a whole lot worse later, but that's for another time.
AlexTWithBeard 8y ago
But aren't we all a minority in some way? Looking at the folks in my office, many of us are not native speakers of English. The guy sitting next to me is a native speaker, but he's black. The guy next to him is a white native speaker, but he's disabled and has to work from home most of the time. Another guy "ticks all the marks", but he's extremely shy. And so on and so forth. Look at yourself, at your parents carefully and you'll realize you are a minority in one way or another.
thetruthseeker1 8y ago
I think subtle racism is a big problem. It can be felt without being verbally communicated to you, the actions from the perpetrators are frustrating and you feel helpless. The perpetrators would not be corrected because they said nothing wrong. Worst of all is that you don’t get a fair shake, and you might be dismissed at the slightest hint of incoherence and sometimes you feel like the perpetrators are waiting for you to fail.
thereare5lights 8y ago
At this time, only 4 hours old and 93 points, but is buried as #257 on the 9th page. What gives?
- porphyrogene 8y ago
  The moderators have a long-standing bias towards the political right. A black man with a PhD in Mathematics is not allowed to speak out about systemic racism on Hacker News.
  - dang 8y ago
    Forgive me for sharing a sample of my collection: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15032682 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15032682 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15585780 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15585780 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15546533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15546533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16134205 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16134205 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17197581 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17197581 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18664482 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18664482 https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=slamdance https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=slamdance https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13110004 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13110004 I know how obvious it seems that the bias is against you, but that's mostly because you (i.e. any of us) are 1000x more likely to notice cases you dislike or disagree with.
    - porphyrogene 8y ago
      Your handling of this comment section was irresponsible. If you cannot handle this responsibility you should ban submissions and comments dealing with any and all social issues and allow only technical discussion. You have allowed a hateful element to silence a voice that spoke truth to power by making simple observations about how mathematicians handle race over a course of decades. The moderation of this submission was unreasonable and discompassionate. Edit: To my brigader bot, I am responding directly to a moderator. I want him to read this comment. Flagging it immediately after I post is actually helpful. Downvoting it only helps to prove my point.

110 points by mykowebhn 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

crimsonalucard 8y ago

As an Asian in math I suffer from racism as well.

lokidokiro 8y ago
In the US, it's socially acceptable to discriminate against white and Asian people. As a result, whites and Asians are victimized by racism on a far greater scale than any other racial group. The perpetrators of such racism justify their actions by saying your ancestors were well off so it's fine to mistreat you.
crimsonalucard 8y ago
See I was voted down. Racism.
- dang 8y ago
  Please don't break the site guidelines by going on about downvoting. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html The problem with your earlier comment is that it was unsubstantive. Grand claims in unsubstantive comments on inflammatory topics are particularly problematic.

ml2019 8y ago

> Dr. Goins’s colleagues at Purdue said his receipt of tenure and subsequent promotion to full professor signaled the university’s willingness to overlook a sparse research portfolio in light of his extraordinary work with undergraduates, as well as the summer programs he organized for minority students. > But Dr. Goins said he was looking for something else. “I just never really felt respected,” he said. It actually sounds like he was promoted to a position he's unqualified for, perhaps because of diversity and inclusion initiatives. His colleagues very likely understand that and are treating him differently because of his skillset and not because of his identity. This is the unintended consequence of hiring and promoting based on identity instead of merit.

jellicle 8y ago
Commenter looks at a field that hires only white men, and excludes everyone else, and sees a meritocracy. If an single extremely competent, outstandingly-qualified black man is hired, it's because of his identity. Remarkable.
- thosakwe 8y ago
  For GP, and for those in other comments who were confused about the phrase "token," this is it in a nutshell - having people doubt your accomplishments, and assume that the reason you're in a position is not because you're qualified, but because you have a specific identity.
  - afiori 8y ago
    there is another side; the one were companies actually hire people for numbers (I am not claiming they are common). for example in china there is a market of "white guy in suit walking around the office looking busy when visitors are present". I don't want to diminish your point as it is indeed a serious problem, but it is not the whole picture.
- afiori 8y ago
  In my country many university apply for European grants, one easy way to get more points is to include minorities in you research group, if by some chance you get a female immigrant african disabled student you are going to want to include her in every project you ever have. The above commenter saw a place where from above there were incentives to hire minorities, it is not impossible to believe that at some point an administrator claimed "we need a diversity hire in the next 6 month" and they hired the only matching one. Also the bigotry of low expectation is a real thing, where some people treat minorities as essentially stupid by default and then get magically surprised when they are normally competent. I don't know if I agree with the commenter above, but the incentives of affirmative action and diversity hire are sometimes problematic. (just for clarity, my personal opinion is to assume that everyone that got a job deserved it. Even if it is obviously false sometimes it is the most stable one, we should keep our culture in a place where that is a reasonable assumption)

eruci 8y ago

"Fewer than 1 percent of doctorates in math are awarded to African-Americans" So? We have affirmative action policies for university admissions. If an Asian needs an "X" SAT score, and an African-American "X - δ" to enter university, yet, fewer of them make it to the higher levels, what do we do? Have different standards for awarding doctorates based on race? Western civilization is in crisis because of these social experimental policies undermining its original meritocratic competitive default mode. So, the real question is, where/when at some point does this madness stop?

burkaman 8y ago
> what do we do? Good question. It's a very hard problem, and requires a lot of thought and self-reflection to even begin to solve. Simple university admission policies will not solve such a broad social issue, as you've noted. > original meritocratic competitive default mode Can you explain this? When/where did this meritocratic system exist?
- crowdpleaser 8y ago
  Meritocracy was the default for institutions so long as someone could enter the competition. The aberrations were for nepotism/ cronyism but those appear to be relatively limited. I can recommend some books about how the German university system worked or how the British civil service worked or how the Dutch trade houses worked if you’re interested. Today isn’t a perfect meritocracy, the last wasn’t either, but modern affirmative action is unprecedented in western civilization for allowing the proliferation of non-maximally competent people to rise. I can also recommend some stuff about the disasters of affirmative action policies in South Africa under black (mis)management
  - tptacek 8y ago
    The historical British civil service is your prime example of a superior meritocracy?
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >Meritocracy was the default for institutions so long as someone could enter the competition. The aberrations were for nepotism/ cronyism but those appear to be relatively limited. Limited? Weren't universities merely the place were nobility and rich heirs went to study to get back and lead their inherited empires?

skh 8y ago

EDIT: Got rid of part of my post that had enough information in it that could be tied to people in real life. -------- It doesn't help that West Lafayette is a very racist place in my experience. I'm white and a native speaker of American English. On my first day of teaching at Purdue I introduced myself to the class and a student asked, "Are you an American? Do you speak English?" At the time West Lafayette had a confusing road system for a small town. Lots of 5-way intersections and one way streets. I was late to a dental appointment and apologized to the dentist's secretary. I explained that I had a hard time figuring out how to get to the place. She responded, "Yeah, the road system here was designed by a drunk Indian." I'm certain living in Indiana exacerbated the situation.

avip 8y ago
It is also not helping that there actually is such a thing as "token X". A less discussed side effect of affirmative action.
- pvg 8y ago
  I don't think that's the thing that's 'not helping', here.
  - Legogris 8y ago
    There is such a thing as the "token gaijin" at Japanese companies - the foreigner who can show to visitors how international company this is. Generally very little influence or path of progress. Also just the knowledge of this phenomenon can cause self-doubt for the individual. White people office workers Japan are of course not the same as black mathematicians in the U.S., but I don't believe that it's not contributing to the problem if it occurs.
    - pvg 8y ago
      I just don't think 'my prejudices are actually true' is the conclusion to draw from 'tokenism exists', that is all.

willpiers 8y ago

I fail to see how either of your anecdotes constitute racism

porphyrogene 8y ago
> I fail You got that part right. You have a moral obligation to be aware of racial discrimination and its calling cards.
paulcole 8y ago
> Yeah, the road system here was designed by a drunk Indian What does including Indian add here? If the (alleged) drunk was white would the person have said, "drunk white guy"?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- skh 8y ago
  I'm assuming this is a genuine question on your part. I would suggest reading up on common stereotypes of the native peoples in the U.S. Native Americans did not design the road system in West Lafayette. Whites did. The person making the remark is in essence saying: Yes the road system is really fucked up. It's so bad that I can't give a real explanation for it so I jokingly say a drunk Indian had to have done it because that's the only thing that can make sense.
  - BookmarkSaver 8y ago
    For some reason I assumed that it was referring to subcontinent Indians, and was slightly confused because I don't consider it racist to point out that their road system is absolutely atrocious.
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      My first thought was that it was a non-sequitur, but that it involved subcontinent Indians. I find it ironic that people who are apparently calling out one kind of bigotry in this thread are then playing on stereotypes of what people who live in certain places are like. As a nonwhite who actually has been racially bashed and who has seen people overcome bigotry through their basic humanity, I always want to warn everyone that the problem isn't people from a particular place, people of a particular ethnicity, or people grouped by any surface characteristic, chosen, indelible or in between. The problem is groupthink, and the dark emotions that can come about because of it. The moment you start imputing thoughts, feelings, and emotions to people with scant evidence, you have taken a misstep. (1) You have succumbed to groupthink. If you would fight bigotry, it first behooves you to actively eliminate your own bigotry. It's then your duty not to fall into the very patterns you're supposed to fight. (1) -- Also, if you start condemning people because you imagine you know what they are thinking and feeling, and you believe they are lying to you, then you set up a situation where no one can prove their innocence, and no one trusts anyone else anymore. We have historical accounts of such times and places. Often, such epistemological catastrophes accompany inter-ethnic and inter-sectarian violence and atrocities.

ousta 8y ago

I always struggle to see people victim of racism identify themselve only through their race. . “I have been the only one in most of the universities I’ve been to — the only student or faculty in the mathematics department.” “To say that I feel isolated,” I have always been different looking than other people around me and never identified myself through my race but through my interests and undertakings in life. I find it sad that even people with PhDs think all people of the same race are the same and feel isolated when they re not around same race people while for me being a mathematician surrounded by mathematicians should be the only thing that matters.

lordnacho 8y ago
But this is not necessarily a matter of choice. If everyone else thinks race is a thing, you need to at least think about it, regardless of whether you believe in it too. I'd like to think the way you do ("my interests and undertakings in life"), and mostly I do, but if I find myself in a society where everyone has a label, I need to consider my label. To the point where it might make sense for me to have others with that label near me.

Leader2light 8y ago

We spend so much of our time in the western white world, worrying and thinking about minority issues. I'm honestly sick of it. What a huge waste of time and effort. Meanwhile, China is just sailing by the west. Diversity is not the future, diversity is divisive.

tyler- 8y ago

People from poor demographics in general are discriminated against in various ways. Want to learn math but come from a poor neighborhood? Good luck. You’re probably locked in a school system with bad teachers and few if any math courses beyond calculus. Even if you’re talented you probably know 0 people that can help you. Now your growth is prematurely stunted. That kid from a better off family that shows talent in math? Probably get recognized for it from an early age and gets tutors and advanced training. Probably already completed proof based courses in analysis, algebra by the time they completed high school. They get into better schools and have ahead start. Even if they are just as talented as you the poor kid.

r_smart 8y ago
>Even if you’re talented you probably know 0 people that can help you. Now your growth is prematurely stunted. This was my experience, and was challenging. At the time I was more inclined to the arts, but the problem is the same. Who can you talk to about the books you're reading (my particular passion)?
noobermin 8y ago
This I guess is exactly what I was thinking. As a legacy from segregation (and ultimately, slavery), African Americans still are disproportionately poor. This explains the macro-statistic, that only 1% of Math PhD's are given to African Americans. I don't doubt there is some personal bias that is at play too. As a PhD who isn't Black but isn't white or Asian, I face it too, but the personal challenges I face paled in comparison to the structural and purely economic challenges I had to overcome.
- afiori 8y ago
  From this point of view it would be interesting to discuss the advantages and disadvantages of race-based affirmative action and income-based affirmative action.
adamnemecek 8y ago
> Probably already completed proof based courses in analysis, algebra by the time they completed high school. Is this common?

kauffj 8y ago

> For the record, here is a small sample of other communities where black people are strongly underrepresented: > Runners (3%). Bikers (6%). Furries (2%). Wall Street senior management (2%). Occupy Wall Street protesters (unknown but low, one source says 1.6% but likely an underestimate). BDSM (unknown but low) Tea Party members (1%). American Buddhists (~2%). Bird watchers (4%). Environmentalists (various but universally low). Wikipedia contributors (unknown but low). Atheists (2%). Vegetarian activists (maybe 1-5%). Yoga enthusiasts (unknown but low). College baseball players (5%). Swimmers (2%). Fanfiction readers (2%). Unitarian Universalists (1%). > Can you see what all of these groups have in common? > No. No you can’t. If there’s some hidden factor uniting Wall Street senior management and furries, it is way beyond any of our pay grades. > But what I noticed when I looked up those numbers was that in every case, the people involved have come up with a pat explanation that sounds perfectly plausible right up until you compare it to any other group, at which point it bursts into flame Excerpt from Black People Less Likely: https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/02/11/black-people-less-likely/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/02/11/black-people-less-like...

coldtea 8y ago
Most of these should be a sign of pride for black people that most of them aren't... Runners, furries, Wall Street senior management, American Buddhists, Bird watchers, Environmentalists, Wikipedia contributors, Atheists, Vegetarian activists (maybe 1-5%). Yoga enthusiasts, fanfiction readers, unitarian Universalists, and so on.... Obnoxious appropriations of foreign cultures, middle class pastimes, infantilization, and virtue-signaling, the lot of them... (Imagine what Bill Hicks would have thought about each of those activities, and imagine how impressed they'd be by a class of people uninterested in such BS)
iguy 8y ago
I would bet that in almost every one of those categories, Americans of New England descent are over-represented compared to people of Christian Italian/German/Polish descent. (With the least money on the sporting ones.)
- afiori 8y ago

lotaezenwa 8y ago

This mathematician is not stupid. I would be inclined to believe he understands statistics/anecdotes/academia better than you reading this right now. We only get a small glimpse into the intricacies of his world view and life, and this is what he has chosen to share. This is the story he is telling. Ask yourself why someone in this position would tell this story based on years of lived experience. Do you believe him? Or do you believe keyboard warriors in some of the comments under this article diminishing his perspective with "but what about"-ism and the like? I am black and studied math in school. The 'leaky pipeline' exists to some extent. Racist people exist even if you, reading this, are not racist.

python_gt_r 8y ago
Also by definition, judgement biases underlying racism are common across people. There's no more racism in whites or republicans, rationalization is different. Splitting the world in racist and no racist is simplistic and poor argumentation.
- lotaezenwa 8y ago
  > by definition judgement[sic] biases underlying racism are common across people 0) We never agreed on the definition of "judgment biases", so please do not use the phrase "by definition". Your definition differs from mine.
  - python_gt_r 8y ago
    A very high percent of any race dates only inside their racial/ethnic group. And so on. It's natural preferences. Some people call it racism, specially if it's pointing at white people. I call it your life your choice.
    - helen___keller 8y ago
      >A very high percent of any race dates only inside their racial/ethnic group. And so on. It's natural preferences. Are you making this claim or is there evidence that supports it? Would be interested to see a study on that

cc81 8y ago

I don't doubt that there absolutely exists prejudices in this case but I also wonder how many will also be created by one self in that situation just because how the human mind works. I used to have quite a lot of acne and it really got to my head. It of course did affect how people treated me, especially girls, because acne is not very attractive however after a while I probably read into things way more than I should. That people who were treating me the way they normally would or just happened to treat me badly because they had a bad day did treat me that way because of my acne. Being the lone black guy in a research institution in a country like the US with that kind of history must be easy to start falling down that hole. Especially if there also exists people who are prejudiced or racist and expresses that as well.

lotaezenwa 8y ago
So you believe your experience with acne could be a lot like people experiencing racism?
- barberousse 8y ago
  I cannot believe you got downvoted into grey text already despite how obviously terrible this person's comparison is. Not to mention the insinuation that the experience of racism may just be the spotlight effect. Literally the most general and ubiquitous claim you see made whenever topics around racial experience come up.
- rudedogg 8y ago
  I feel like your comment is disingenuous. He's saying that we all feel slighted, and perhaps cases where minorities feel slighted, is just that. A case mentioned from the article that gave me this vibe: > “A couple of them were at a board writing something,” he recalled. “I went over and asked, ‘What are you guys working on?’” > “We’re too far in to catch you up,” he said he was told. I know personally, I used to feel very "in tune" to how people perceived me. I read a book on body language when I was younger, and would constantly analyze how people moved ("head tilted, they think this is interesting", "arms crossed, they're defensive"), etc. It went further than that - analyzing language etc. But, there were some cases were I was certain someone was being an asshole to me - but I learned I was wrong. Now I'm much more restrictive in how I pass judgement on someone. I hope others give me that benefit, because I constantly find myself thinking of how something I said in conversation could be misunderstood, etc. Communication is hard.

mykowebhn 8y ago

When I was in primary school in Canada, I was able to get mostly good grades without really trying. I admit I was a little lazy, and my laziness would result in the occasional bad grade. What I remember is that I would always be scolded by my teachers for not doing well. A few of my friends, however, who were black would never be scolded for not doing well at school. The point I'm trying to get across is that racism can be quite subtle and baked into things we don't even realize, like the expectations we have of other people. I'm not sure how well I would've done in life if people implicitly expected me to fail.

lordnacho 8y ago

The thing with prejudice is nobody will ever admit to being prejudiced. All you can do is piece it together. Sometimes your working hypothesis is that it's just noise, other times it's prejudice. I brought in a woman to work on a project once, and it was awful. Despite her doing objectively better work than what was available before, my partners decided everything she did needed criticism. Never anything substantial, just pretend criticism meant to look like they knew what they were talking about. And one of them wanted veto on all the work, despite knowing very little about it. They questioned whether she'd have been on the project if she didn't know me, which is pretty out there given she did this for a living for some very well known firms. Then they called her something offensive in front of her, and when I called them out on it, they pretended it was a joke intended to make her feel like part of the team. Can you ever conclude what people's true motivations are? Not really. Could someone genuinely have felt that some person's work was substandard, they didn't get the job legitimately, and could they screw up some office banter? Sure. It took me a long time to think this through, but in the end it misogyny seemed to be the only answer. We'd worked with plenty of incompetents before without saying much, and hired plenty of people (all guys) through the friends network. We'd never had anyone get bullied like that in the office, though. Story got a whole lot worse later, but that's for another time.

AlexTWithBeard 8y ago

But aren't we all a minority in some way? Looking at the folks in my office, many of us are not native speakers of English. The guy sitting next to me is a native speaker, but he's black. The guy next to him is a white native speaker, but he's disabled and has to work from home most of the time. Another guy "ticks all the marks", but he's extremely shy. And so on and so forth. Look at yourself, at your parents carefully and you'll realize you are a minority in one way or another.

thetruthseeker1 8y ago

I think subtle racism is a big problem. It can be felt without being verbally communicated to you, the actions from the perpetrators are frustrating and you feel helpless. The perpetrators would not be corrected because they said nothing wrong. Worst of all is that you don’t get a fair shake, and you might be dismissed at the slightest hint of incoherence and sometimes you feel like the perpetrators are waiting for you to fail.

thereare5lights 8y ago

At this time, only 4 hours old and 93 points, but is buried as #257 on the 9th page. What gives?

porphyrogene 8y ago
The moderators have a long-standing bias towards the political right. A black man with a PhD in Mathematics is not allowed to speak out about systemic racism on Hacker News.
- dang 8y ago
  Forgive me for sharing a sample of my collection: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15032682 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15032682 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15585780 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15585780 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15546533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15546533 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16134205 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16134205 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17197581 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17197581 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18664482 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18664482 https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=slamdance https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=slamdance https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13110004 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13110004 I know how obvious it seems that the bias is against you, but that's mostly because you (i.e. any of us) are 1000x more likely to notice cases you dislike or disagree with.
  - porphyrogene 8y ago
    Your handling of this comment section was irresponsible. If you cannot handle this responsibility you should ban submissions and comments dealing with any and all social issues and allow only technical discussion. You have allowed a hateful element to silence a voice that spoke truth to power by making simple observations about how mathematicians handle race over a course of decades. The moderation of this submission was unreasonable and discompassionate. Edit: To my brigader bot, I am responding directly to a moderator. I want him to read this comment. Flagging it immediately after I post is actually helpful. Downvoting it only helps to prove my point.