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China could probably go much further. In America, you're shut down and surveilled for demanding systemic changes to the system (just try to build a movement in

China could probably go much further. In America, you're shut down and surveilled for demanding systemic changes to the system (just try to build a movement in the United States for a change of government; see where that gets you). Much of that surveillance is automatic, and fed into police threat scores and FBI databases based off of online conversations (like this one) and other information (including financials, purchase history, social circle, etc). Now, in the United States, if you want to disrupt some other kind of corruption (say, farming industry practices around the treatment of animals) - this will get you on terrorist watchlists, and the FBI will infiltrate and seek the arrests of that behavior as well, enforcing the strict relationship that wealthy families have in the enforcement of American societal structure.

nabla9 8y ago
This is a false equivalence. Your second paragraph is just conspiracy theory. "It's all same" is cynical and unintelligent attitude.
- bigmonads 8y ago
  False equivalence AND conspiracy theory? Lol. In order... "False equivalence": Nope, not saying they are equivalent. "Conspiracy theory": Nope, read the reporting on the Snowden documents, fusion centers, legal cases involving use of surveillance, statements by the American Civil Liberties Union. "It's all the same": I think what America is doing is both worse and of a different kind.
- bigmonads 8y ago
  This is a good illustration of American brainwashing. In the Chinese system, everyone is informed - but is not allowed to question the systems' structure. In the United States, pressure is applied to the adknowlegement of the structure - because the legitimacy of the system is built on the idea that the security enforcement isn't present or necessary. Reinforcement of the lie plays into American psychological cognitive dissonance because American cultural identity requires feeling "uniquely free" and moral. Pointing out the facts often converts a person into a willing disbeliever, even a violently impassioned one.
- arminiusreturns 8y ago
  I'm so absolutely tired of people dismissing very real concerns and positions of people with the term "conspiracy theory"! First of all, gp isn't wrong, those things do happen in America and we have had plenty of proof leak over the years to back that up. Second, the entire history of the world is chock-full of conspiracy, so to dismiss points so blithely and naively as " conspiracy theory" indicates a lack of knowledge of history. Third, has everyone just forgotten that the term itself was pushed post JFK assassination as a psyop tool by the CIA to discredit anyone who questioned the Warren commission? If it weren't for Snowden many of us who had been ranting about the NSA would still be getting dismissed with off-hand remarks of "conspiracy theorist" with a condescending undertone. Yet even as those of us warning about these issues move on to tell people about the next thing, we get the same thing. Even worse, after being proved right by Wikileaks or Snowden etc, those same people are still making excuses for their failure to heed those warnings. For example, I can't tell you how frustrating it is to start talking about NSA and to get "yeah we'll, we knew about echelon, it wasn't a surprise" type comments. Yes, those of us paying attention knew, but the problem is that we all got dismissed by smugly idiotic people with phrases like "crackpot conspiracy theorist"...
  - nabla9 8y ago
    "Those things do happen" is not proper counterargument. I'm aware that they happen and I'm worried. They just don't happen in the same scale and they don't have as bad consequences for people.
    - arminiusreturns 8y ago
      You said none of that in your original argument.
    - PavlovsCat 8y ago
      There is a huge difference between "that's not true, it's a conspiracy theory", and "oh sure it does happen, but at a different scale and with less bad consequences [not that I would want to suffer the worst consequences in either scenario]". > "Those things do happen" is not proper counterargument. To "that's a conspiracy theory" it actually is, and though I still agree that it's a red herring to talk about the US when China is brought up (and China or Russia or human nature when the US is brought up), it's not a "conspiracy theory" at all. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2013/jun/14/climate-change-energy-shocks-nsa-prism https://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2013/j... > It is therefore not surprising that the increasing privatisation of intelligence has coincided with the proliferation of domestic surveillance operations against political activists, particularly those linked to environmental and social justice protest groups. > Department of Homeland Security documents released in April prove a "systematic effort" by the agency "to surveil and disrupt peaceful demonstrations" linked to Occupy Wall Street, according to the Partnership for Civil Justice Fund (PCJF). > Similarly, FBI documents confirmed "a strategic partnership between the FBI, the Department of Homeland Security and the private sector" designed to produce intelligence on behalf of "the corporate security community." A PCJF spokesperson remarked that the documents show "federal agencies functioning as a de facto intelligence arm of Wall Street and Corporate America."
jryle70 8y ago
> In America, you're shut down and surveilled for demanding systemic changes to the system (just try to build a movement in the United States for a change of government; see where that gets you) Have you tried? Did you know that the United States communist party has been in existence for a century? [0] > (says, farming industry practices around the treatment of animals) - this will get you on terrorist watchlists I'm not aware PETA is on terrorist watchlist. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_USA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_USA
- monocasa 8y ago
  I mean, the communist party was outlawed in the US in 1954, so probably not the best example.

nabla9 8y ago

This is a false equivalence. Your second paragraph is just conspiracy theory. "It's all same" is cynical and unintelligent attitude.

bigmonads 8y ago
False equivalence AND conspiracy theory? Lol. In order... "False equivalence": Nope, not saying they are equivalent. "Conspiracy theory": Nope, read the reporting on the Snowden documents, fusion centers, legal cases involving use of surveillance, statements by the American Civil Liberties Union. "It's all the same": I think what America is doing is both worse and of a different kind.
bigmonads 8y ago
This is a good illustration of American brainwashing. In the Chinese system, everyone is informed - but is not allowed to question the systems' structure. In the United States, pressure is applied to the adknowlegement of the structure - because the legitimacy of the system is built on the idea that the security enforcement isn't present or necessary. Reinforcement of the lie plays into American psychological cognitive dissonance because American cultural identity requires feeling "uniquely free" and moral. Pointing out the facts often converts a person into a willing disbeliever, even a violently impassioned one.
arminiusreturns 8y ago
I'm so absolutely tired of people dismissing very real concerns and positions of people with the term "conspiracy theory"! First of all, gp isn't wrong, those things do happen in America and we have had plenty of proof leak over the years to back that up. Second, the entire history of the world is chock-full of conspiracy, so to dismiss points so blithely and naively as " conspiracy theory" indicates a lack of knowledge of history. Third, has everyone just forgotten that the term itself was pushed post JFK assassination as a psyop tool by the CIA to discredit anyone who questioned the Warren commission? If it weren't for Snowden many of us who had been ranting about the NSA would still be getting dismissed with off-hand remarks of "conspiracy theorist" with a condescending undertone. Yet even as those of us warning about these issues move on to tell people about the next thing, we get the same thing. Even worse, after being proved right by Wikileaks or Snowden etc, those same people are still making excuses for their failure to heed those warnings. For example, I can't tell you how frustrating it is to start talking about NSA and to get "yeah we'll, we knew about echelon, it wasn't a surprise" type comments. Yes, those of us paying attention knew, but the problem is that we all got dismissed by smugly idiotic people with phrases like "crackpot conspiracy theorist"...
- nabla9 8y ago
  "Those things do happen" is not proper counterargument. I'm aware that they happen and I'm worried. They just don't happen in the same scale and they don't have as bad consequences for people.
  - arminiusreturns 8y ago
    You said none of that in your original argument.
  - PavlovsCat 8y ago
    There is a huge difference between "that's not true, it's a conspiracy theory", and "oh sure it does happen, but at a different scale and with less bad consequences [not that I would want to suffer the worst consequences in either scenario]". > "Those things do happen" is not proper counterargument. To "that's a conspiracy theory" it actually is, and though I still agree that it's a red herring to talk about the US when China is brought up (and China or Russia or human nature when the US is brought up), it's not a "conspiracy theory" at all. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2013/jun/14/climate-change-energy-shocks-nsa-prism https://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2013/j... > It is therefore not surprising that the increasing privatisation of intelligence has coincided with the proliferation of domestic surveillance operations against political activists, particularly those linked to environmental and social justice protest groups. > Department of Homeland Security documents released in April prove a "systematic effort" by the agency "to surveil and disrupt peaceful demonstrations" linked to Occupy Wall Street, according to the Partnership for Civil Justice Fund (PCJF). > Similarly, FBI documents confirmed "a strategic partnership between the FBI, the Department of Homeland Security and the private sector" designed to produce intelligence on behalf of "the corporate security community." A PCJF spokesperson remarked that the documents show "federal agencies functioning as a de facto intelligence arm of Wall Street and Corporate America."

jryle70 8y ago

> In America, you're shut down and surveilled for demanding systemic changes to the system (just try to build a movement in the United States for a change of government; see where that gets you) Have you tried? Did you know that the United States communist party has been in existence for a century? [0] > (says, farming industry practices around the treatment of animals) - this will get you on terrorist watchlists I'm not aware PETA is on terrorist watchlist. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_USA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_USA

monocasa 8y ago
I mean, the communist party was outlawed in the US in 1954, so probably not the best example.