4 ms·

Get a lawyer, review contracts, hire an accountant, register as a company...is this really better than working a regular 9-5? Sounds like the OP spends just as

Get a lawyer, review contracts, hire an accountant, register as a company...is this really better than working a regular 9-5? Sounds like the OP spends just as much time (if not more) doing paperwork, meetings, phone calls and other assorted meta-work as programmers in Big Tech Co, if not more. Corporate America can be a drag, I get it. Annual reviews, backstabbing office politics, the wrong people get promoted, loud open offices full of clowns that prevent you from concentrating but from this write-up it doesn't sound like going solo is any hassle-free Shangrila, either. For a certain class of people they like the "freedom" and hey, more power to you. By all means, enjoy the IC life. But I'd just as soon move to a different company if I'm unhappy at my job and not deal with this Kafkaesque amount of paperwork of being an independent consultant.

taneq 8y ago
> Sounds like the OP spends just as much time (if not more) doing paperwork, meetings, phone calls and other assorted meta-work as programmers in Big Tech Co, if not more. That's business ownership for you. The one thing you're almost certainly NOT getting (at least at the start) is more coding time.
- ordinaryperson 8y ago
  Exactly. And that's fine as long as you'r transparent about the tradeoff. But we tend not to frame solo dev as "mostly business-related work with a little bit of programming" instead we think of it as "Programming on your own! No boss! Wahoo!"
- jakobegger 8y ago
  As a business owner, I wish there was a way to outsource all the boring stuff. Last year I've even tried hiring someone to do all the beaurocratic stuff for me, but that didn't work out -- finding good people who want to work just a few hours a week isn't easy. I guess at a certain size, you can hire a full time assistant to take care of that stuff, but at a small business you are going to do all the overhead work yourself.
kevinburke 8y ago
I am the OP and I spend far less actually... a few hours at the beginning of a contract sure but the average contract is multiple months. All of the bills are auto paid, I just need to choose the right card/account when I pay for something. Invoices take about two minutes to generate using a free site called “invoice-generator.com.” The accountant I would have hired anyway to do my taxes. I don’t pay for the lawyer if I don’t use them. I also get to skip doing phone screens, interviews, being oncall... I am spending a lot more of my time focusing on product problems than I was as a full time employee. Also - this might be obvious but the goal is to make more than you made as a full time employee or get more vacation time for the same amount per year not merely tread water.
- raverbashing 8y ago
  Is most of your work "on site" at the customer or at home?
  - kevinburke 8y ago
    Usually I commute to wherever the company is located 4 days a week. I have done all-remote projects before though.
- ordinaryperson 8y ago
  I'm glad to hear I'm wrong. I'm certainly not rooting for anyone to fail. But a couple of things. One, the higher you rise in responsibility the more likely your work is to be meta-work. I saw your personal site and the services you're advertising, as time goes on you'll be offering more business-like services because inevitably that's what customers want. Sadly most programmers have to choose between having the satisfaction of doing IC work and having their salary plateau or transitioning into management and/or biz dev consulting. Second, it's hard to build equity as an independent. That is, if you work for Facebook or Amazon or whoever for 5 years, that's a hard skill you can trade in for a better job elsewhere, or at the very least your benefits start to accrue higher and higher (e.g. at my Big Tech Co: discount off public stock purchase). How many 55 year old solo independent devs do you see out there in the wild? I'm sure they exist but unless the have some very specific skill set (e.g. COBOL programming for banks) it's hard to have a forever career as a generalist IC. But again, more power to you if you can make it work. I'm not criticizing the lifestyle, only suggesting that it's not some peaceful freedom from BS that we'd all want to imagine it to be.
TaylorGood 8y ago
Until recently I would've spoken as pro-independent, having been at it the last few years as an agency. I left Corporate America to increase "freedom" but regardless of whether you charge flat-rate, hourly, weekly, retainer, etc. you're also spending those "free" hours wondering / attempting to find + secure more work. And regardless of your pipeline, it is a dance with existing clients. Payment schedules getting out of wack, revisions delaying payment and so on. What's the real net return? Living expenses covered? Compared to a 9-5, there is a significant risk. What I realized is that if I am going to play with such levels of risk, do so through equity plays and not services. Through end of 2018, I was services only. I am mid-process interviewing with larger companies and will happily dive into my skill set for _______ while doing side projects.
- ordinaryperson 8y ago
  This is exactly what I'm talking about. You've been on both sides and can appreciate each. You should formulate your experiences into a longer Medium post (or blog post) and share with HN.
  - TaylorGood 8y ago
    I appreciate it. Hadn't considered Medium as a way to create content, let alone share both sides or startup lessons learned (4x co-founder) !
paxys 8y ago
When people talk about "freedom" in this context, they don't mean freedom from meetings, paperwork or other boring aspects of corporate life. And being self-employed is definitely not hassle-free. What entices people is that - for both better and worse - you are your own boss. You dictate what projects you say yes or no to, what hours you work, when you go on vacation and lots more.
- avip 8y ago
  If W pays you X to do Y you are not “your own boss”. You just have different type of employment relations. I’ve done both and find them equally “free”.
- ordinaryperson 8y ago
  It's true, and I've had enough horrible managers to understand and appreciate the appeal. All I'm saying is when most programmers envision being a solo, independent dev they think of the freedom but it's really (IMHO) a series of tradeoffs that don't necessarily make it significantly better than working a 9-5 for most people. Everyone's situation is different. For some it's a dream, I'm sure. But I read lawyer, accountant, contracts, billing and think I'd rather just go back to work.
jasonkester 8y ago
You skipped the other “freedom” you get when you work for yourself: free time. When you hang out your shingle and quadruple your bill rate for short bursts of client work, you get the option of not immediately booking another gig after you finish the last one. For me, I’d usually toss in a quick 9-12 months of travel before committing to another gig. But you’re right. I did have to fill out the longer version of turbotax, so maybe it all balances out.
- ordinaryperson 8y ago
  Ha not sure "9-12 months" is "quick". If I wanted to quit my job and travel, I can do that with a regular 9-5. Maybe others can do this (and if so, more power to them) but if I was taking "free time" while a solo dev I would just feel like I was constantly losing money.
system2 8y ago
Yes, because once you figure those parts (which is not that hard as you listed), you will be able to make 5x - 10x more money than you used to make with the same skillset. 9-5 for a developer pays 100k. Freelance gets paid 250k+. This is real.
- ordinaryperson 8y ago
  Most devs I know make a lot more than 100K but maybe that reflects my old age. But let's dive into the numbers for a moment. I have no doubt you can book 250K in a year...but you only referred to the base salary of a developer, not all the other paid-for benefits. Health care is a huge one. Take a big number out of that 250K. Paid vacation is a second. Let's say you get 2-4 weeks off in total PTO, that's worth thousands of dollars. None of the expenses the author mentioned -- lawyer, accountant, etc. Free computer hardware. An office space to work in. Colleagues you can call on instantly for help. You don't have to spend unpaid time looking for work. I'd love to a see a spreadsheet comparison of each lifestyle and see if it's really raining money down as a consultant, because my (admittedly unscientific) gut says it's not.
  - joezydeco 8y ago
    Health care is a huge one. Health care is a massive one. Burke doesn't mention if he's single or has a family, but any kind of decent plan (health + dental + vision) that covers a family will be extremely expensive. I just left a company and the COBRA quote for my old plan was $2,600/month. If ACA had been modified to eliminate preexisting conditions, this would have been even worse. I shopped on the open market before ACA and it was a nightmare.
    - ordinaryperson 8y ago
      Exactly. And presumably the OP is young and healthy but as you get older you'll need a lot of doctor's visits for the entire family and if you want a GOOD plan, not just some garbage one that barely covers anything, it's extremely expensive. But it gets to my overall point -- a lot of freelance devs like to bandy around big numbers like 250K without subtracting any of the costs or drawbacks. For some people I'm sure the tradeoff is worth it but on balance a good job at Big Tech Co to me seems like a better long-term prospect than freelancing forever. But it's just my opinion.
buboard 8y ago
you underestimate the burden of 9-5 though. time is more precious than money, and its not like you cant have both
- ordinaryperson 8y ago
  I'd say it depends on the 9-5. I've worked enough terrible jobs to know they can definitely destroy your happiness but found a few good ones that make me happy to come into work every day. For some people the tradeoff of going solo is worth it and good for them. But I read the OP's post and wait, I have to study contracts for XYZ? I'd rather just go to work.
perfunctory 8y ago
> Annual reviews Oh man. This alone is reason enough for me to be a freelancer.
- ordinaryperson 8y ago
  Ha, yes, that's fair. There are few worse features of corporate america than annual reviews -- not because of the process itself but more often because of how poorly they are run by untrained managers.
JamesBarney 8y ago
For me personally it was a huge drop in stress. I absolutely hated having bosses promise unrealistic deadlines and then crank up the pressure on the team when we flew passed promised deadlines. Now the only person who makes promises is me.
eswat 8y ago
After the initial corporation, legal and accounting setup there’s actually little paperwork that really needs to be done and can actually be quicker than the 9-5 equivalent. ie: if I need a new computer I just buy it and attach the receipt to the bank statement tracked by my accounting software and my accountant takes care of the rest, versus having togo through some procurement process involving making a business case for my purchase, filling in the expense report, getting that report signed by a manager, etc.

taneq 8y ago

> Sounds like the OP spends just as much time (if not more) doing paperwork, meetings, phone calls and other assorted meta-work as programmers in Big Tech Co, if not more. That's business ownership for you. The one thing you're almost certainly NOT getting (at least at the start) is more coding time.

ordinaryperson 8y ago
Exactly. And that's fine as long as you'r transparent about the tradeoff. But we tend not to frame solo dev as "mostly business-related work with a little bit of programming" instead we think of it as "Programming on your own! No boss! Wahoo!"
jakobegger 8y ago
As a business owner, I wish there was a way to outsource all the boring stuff. Last year I've even tried hiring someone to do all the beaurocratic stuff for me, but that didn't work out -- finding good people who want to work just a few hours a week isn't easy. I guess at a certain size, you can hire a full time assistant to take care of that stuff, but at a small business you are going to do all the overhead work yourself.

kevinburke 8y ago

I am the OP and I spend far less actually... a few hours at the beginning of a contract sure but the average contract is multiple months. All of the bills are auto paid, I just need to choose the right card/account when I pay for something. Invoices take about two minutes to generate using a free site called “invoice-generator.com.” The accountant I would have hired anyway to do my taxes. I don’t pay for the lawyer if I don’t use them. I also get to skip doing phone screens, interviews, being oncall... I am spending a lot more of my time focusing on product problems than I was as a full time employee. Also - this might be obvious but the goal is to make more than you made as a full time employee or get more vacation time for the same amount per year not merely tread water.

raverbashing 8y ago
Is most of your work "on site" at the customer or at home?
- kevinburke 8y ago
  Usually I commute to wherever the company is located 4 days a week. I have done all-remote projects before though.
ordinaryperson 8y ago
I'm glad to hear I'm wrong. I'm certainly not rooting for anyone to fail. But a couple of things. One, the higher you rise in responsibility the more likely your work is to be meta-work. I saw your personal site and the services you're advertising, as time goes on you'll be offering more business-like services because inevitably that's what customers want. Sadly most programmers have to choose between having the satisfaction of doing IC work and having their salary plateau or transitioning into management and/or biz dev consulting. Second, it's hard to build equity as an independent. That is, if you work for Facebook or Amazon or whoever for 5 years, that's a hard skill you can trade in for a better job elsewhere, or at the very least your benefits start to accrue higher and higher (e.g. at my Big Tech Co: discount off public stock purchase). How many 55 year old solo independent devs do you see out there in the wild? I'm sure they exist but unless the have some very specific skill set (e.g. COBOL programming for banks) it's hard to have a forever career as a generalist IC. But again, more power to you if you can make it work. I'm not criticizing the lifestyle, only suggesting that it's not some peaceful freedom from BS that we'd all want to imagine it to be.

TaylorGood 8y ago

Until recently I would've spoken as pro-independent, having been at it the last few years as an agency. I left Corporate America to increase "freedom" but regardless of whether you charge flat-rate, hourly, weekly, retainer, etc. you're also spending those "free" hours wondering / attempting to find + secure more work. And regardless of your pipeline, it is a dance with existing clients. Payment schedules getting out of wack, revisions delaying payment and so on. What's the real net return? Living expenses covered? Compared to a 9-5, there is a significant risk. What I realized is that if I am going to play with such levels of risk, do so through equity plays and not services. Through end of 2018, I was services only. I am mid-process interviewing with larger companies and will happily dive into my skill set for _______ while doing side projects.

ordinaryperson 8y ago
This is exactly what I'm talking about. You've been on both sides and can appreciate each. You should formulate your experiences into a longer Medium post (or blog post) and share with HN.
- TaylorGood 8y ago
  I appreciate it. Hadn't considered Medium as a way to create content, let alone share both sides or startup lessons learned (4x co-founder) !

paxys 8y ago

When people talk about "freedom" in this context, they don't mean freedom from meetings, paperwork or other boring aspects of corporate life. And being self-employed is definitely not hassle-free. What entices people is that - for both better and worse - you are your own boss. You dictate what projects you say yes or no to, what hours you work, when you go on vacation and lots more.

avip 8y ago
If W pays you X to do Y you are not “your own boss”. You just have different type of employment relations. I’ve done both and find them equally “free”.
ordinaryperson 8y ago
It's true, and I've had enough horrible managers to understand and appreciate the appeal. All I'm saying is when most programmers envision being a solo, independent dev they think of the freedom but it's really (IMHO) a series of tradeoffs that don't necessarily make it significantly better than working a 9-5 for most people. Everyone's situation is different. For some it's a dream, I'm sure. But I read lawyer, accountant, contracts, billing and think I'd rather just go back to work.

jasonkester 8y ago

You skipped the other “freedom” you get when you work for yourself: free time. When you hang out your shingle and quadruple your bill rate for short bursts of client work, you get the option of not immediately booking another gig after you finish the last one. For me, I’d usually toss in a quick 9-12 months of travel before committing to another gig. But you’re right. I did have to fill out the longer version of turbotax, so maybe it all balances out.

ordinaryperson 8y ago
Ha not sure "9-12 months" is "quick". If I wanted to quit my job and travel, I can do that with a regular 9-5. Maybe others can do this (and if so, more power to them) but if I was taking "free time" while a solo dev I would just feel like I was constantly losing money.

system2 8y ago

Yes, because once you figure those parts (which is not that hard as you listed), you will be able to make 5x - 10x more money than you used to make with the same skillset. 9-5 for a developer pays 100k. Freelance gets paid 250k+. This is real.

ordinaryperson 8y ago
Most devs I know make a lot more than 100K but maybe that reflects my old age. But let's dive into the numbers for a moment. I have no doubt you can book 250K in a year...but you only referred to the base salary of a developer, not all the other paid-for benefits. Health care is a huge one. Take a big number out of that 250K. Paid vacation is a second. Let's say you get 2-4 weeks off in total PTO, that's worth thousands of dollars. None of the expenses the author mentioned -- lawyer, accountant, etc. Free computer hardware. An office space to work in. Colleagues you can call on instantly for help. You don't have to spend unpaid time looking for work. I'd love to a see a spreadsheet comparison of each lifestyle and see if it's really raining money down as a consultant, because my (admittedly unscientific) gut says it's not.
- joezydeco 8y ago
  Health care is a huge one. Health care is a massive one. Burke doesn't mention if he's single or has a family, but any kind of decent plan (health + dental + vision) that covers a family will be extremely expensive. I just left a company and the COBRA quote for my old plan was $2,600/month. If ACA had been modified to eliminate preexisting conditions, this would have been even worse. I shopped on the open market before ACA and it was a nightmare.
  - ordinaryperson 8y ago
    Exactly. And presumably the OP is young and healthy but as you get older you'll need a lot of doctor's visits for the entire family and if you want a GOOD plan, not just some garbage one that barely covers anything, it's extremely expensive. But it gets to my overall point -- a lot of freelance devs like to bandy around big numbers like 250K without subtracting any of the costs or drawbacks. For some people I'm sure the tradeoff is worth it but on balance a good job at Big Tech Co to me seems like a better long-term prospect than freelancing forever. But it's just my opinion.

buboard 8y ago

you underestimate the burden of 9-5 though. time is more precious than money, and its not like you cant have both

ordinaryperson 8y ago
I'd say it depends on the 9-5. I've worked enough terrible jobs to know they can definitely destroy your happiness but found a few good ones that make me happy to come into work every day. For some people the tradeoff of going solo is worth it and good for them. But I read the OP's post and wait, I have to study contracts for XYZ? I'd rather just go to work.

perfunctory 8y ago

> Annual reviews Oh man. This alone is reason enough for me to be a freelancer.

ordinaryperson 8y ago
Ha, yes, that's fair. There are few worse features of corporate america than annual reviews -- not because of the process itself but more often because of how poorly they are run by untrained managers.

JamesBarney 8y ago

For me personally it was a huge drop in stress. I absolutely hated having bosses promise unrealistic deadlines and then crank up the pressure on the team when we flew passed promised deadlines. Now the only person who makes promises is me.

eswat 8y ago

After the initial corporation, legal and accounting setup there’s actually little paperwork that really needs to be done and can actually be quicker than the 9-5 equivalent. ie: if I need a new computer I just buy it and attach the receipt to the bank statement tracked by my accounting software and my accountant takes care of the rest, versus having togo through some procurement process involving making a business case for my purchase, filling in the expense report, getting that report signed by a manager, etc.