6 ms·

London's billion-pound guilds

98 points by blowski 8y ago

fredley 8y ago
Not really secret. To join one of the guilds is to become part of a small club of extremely wealthy and/or well connected people, and the establishment in particular. One route to entry is through charitable donations, and it's one of the more direct means of exchanging money for power/influence in the UK.
- rum3 8y ago
  Why is nothing being done about this?
  - growse 8y ago
    What, exactly, would you propose?
    - YUMad 8y ago
      Eat the rich?
  - tobylane 8y ago
    A lot of power has been taken away from the City and given to the city (from the square mile to the mayor/Assembly). Now it’s vestigial and liked.
- mstade 8y ago
  I don’t know whether this is true because I never looked into it really, but a colleague of mine in the ndustry told me I could join the banker’s guild. His words were that because I lived in the city[1] at the time, and also worked for a bank in the city, I’d be eligible for membership if the bank would nominate or sponsor me as a representative. I’m hazy on the details, it was years ago, and I don’t really know whether it’s true since as mentioned I never checked it out. I kind of regret not doing so now though, since moving out of the city I’ve learned much more of it’s (weird and interesting) history and it would’ve been fun to at least try to see some of this from the inside. It probably wouldn’t have worked anyway, but would’ve been fun to try. For anyone looking for a fun little intro to the weirdness of the city and it’s history, I recommend CGP Grey’s channel and particularly his videos on the City of London[2][3]. [1]: for the benefit of people who might not be aware – “the city” is a colloquialism for the City of London, which is a small somewhat autonomous part of London, situated east of what most people (who don’t know this) probably think of when you say the city of London. [2]: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LrObZ_HZZUc https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LrObZ_HZZUc [3]: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z1ROpIKZe-c https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z1ROpIKZe-c
  - cmmeur01 8y ago
    Here is an eye-opening look at how the city operates in the modern day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np_ylvc8Zj8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np_ylvc8Zj8
- personjerry 8y ago
  Are there other routes to entry, more accessible to you and I?
  - fredley 8y ago
    In a word, no.
- rusk 8y ago
  > Not really secret. A freemason friend of mine once explained to me that they're described as "a secret society" not because they try to hide their existence, but because they have secrets. i.e. shared secrets that they use as a means to authenticate to one another their membership and status. To me, this seems like an alternative and valid interpretation of the term to the one that you have inferred.
xiphias2 8y ago
Good luck to them, but new money is coming fast. They either go along with great new tech investments or lose out over time. Maybe I was just lucky in the past years, but as a person working in tech, coming from a poor family, but with access to great education, I see beating the market as easy. I won't give tips here, because I'm in the minority and I would be voted down (which I see as a prerequisite for making returns).
- scarejunba 8y ago
  They have land. Land usually beats inflation.
  - Latteland 8y ago
    Tell that to the barons whose grandchildren or later are plumbers. Not that there's anything wrong with that ;-), but it's not the same as so rich you never work.
    - barrkel 8y ago
      Descendants are subject to inflation though.
      - OJFord 8y ago
        And dilution.
  - xiphias2 8y ago
    Land is worth a lot, and still more than other assets, but relative value of non-tangible assets are increasing exponentially compared to land.
    - fastball 8y ago
      Yet land is the only true zero-sum game in economics.
    - 8y ago
scottlocklin 8y ago
I dunno why they used the adjective "secret" -there's nothing secret about them. You drive by enormous buildings with their names on 'em in London, and there's a detailed wikipedia entry listing them all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livery_company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livery_company or for HN https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worshipful_Company_of_Information_Technologists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worshipful_Company_of_Informat... It's a cool piece of deep culture that the UK has. Other European countries have such things as well (usually Catholic religious confraternities or dinner clubs), though nothing like this dense concentration.
- pjc50 8y ago
  Not only that, they have a big annual parade with their names all over the place. Maybe they mean "secret" in the sense of "not in the press every single week, because the press have the memory of a goldfish"? The use of charitable foundations to concentrate money and pay generous salaries while being exempt from tax is definitely a problem, but it's shared by quite a few charities in the UK, including some of the private schools.
  - wallace_f 8y ago
    I would go a step further and say charity, as a Western institution, is generally misunderstood. There is an economist, Bill Easterly, who has written extensively about what much of Western aid/charity is actually accomplishing, and it's often not charity. You have the Red Cross losing half a billion in charitable donations and this kind of thing never makes front-page news(1). Now not 100% of charity is bad, but it is my opinion that if someone is aware of such things noted above, this article reads like a manipulative, deliberate hit-piece against these old-money groups, probably for some political reason. 1-https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15326335 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15326335
- twic 8y ago
  I only found out about German academic fencing clubs recently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Student_Corps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Student_Corps As i understand it, they function in part as social networks for the upper class, a bit like masonic lodges, or the Skull and Bones etc. I came across them because there's a social networking platform for members which has the same initials as a communication protocol i was interested in.
walrus01 8y ago
Is there anything stopping a group of totally random individuals from renting a small office somewhere in the City, and calling themselves the Worshipful Society of Penetration Testers or similar? I guess they wouldn't be invited to the parade...
- vidarh 8y ago
  They'd need official recognition to be considered a livery company, and that would take some effort. But nothing would stop them from starting out as a 'normal' charity. There is the Worshipful Company of Information Technologists(1). I looked at it some years ago but didn't end up joining. It's relatively open - you need a member or two to nominate you, but they have social events specifically open to non-members in part for the purpose of giving prospective members the opportunity to find someone who would be willing. (1): http://wcit.org.uk http://wcit.org.uk
billfruit 8y ago
Similarly, the Inns of Court system of the legal profession where London lawyers train and work, is also fascinating to know about. Even the four Inn names Inner Temple, Middle Temple, Garry's Inn and Lincoln's Inn have something romantic about them. Melville wrote an interesting story about them "Paradise of Bachelors" (Which is paired with another story "Tartarus of Maids" ).
- darrenf 8y ago
  > Garry's Inn Actually Gray's Inn.
- pmoriarty 8y ago
  "Melville wrote an interesting story about them "Paradise of Bachelors" (Which is paired with another story "Tartarus of Maids" )." Both can be read here: https://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/i2l/par-tar.html https://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/i2l/par-tar.html
- billfruit 8y ago
  "The genuine Templar is long since departed. Go view the wondrous tombs in the Temple Church; see there the rigidly-haughty forms stretched out, with crossed arm upon their stilly hearts, in everlasting and undreaming rest. Like the years before the flood, the bold Knights-Templars are no more. Nevertheless, the name remains, and the nominal society, and the ancient grounds, and some of the ancient edifices. But the iron heel is changed to a boot of patent-leather; the long two-handed sword to a one-handed quill; the monk-giver of gratuitous ghostly counsel now counsels for a fee; the defender of the sarcophagus (if in good practice with his weapon) now has more than one case to defend; the vowed opener and clearer of all highways leading to the Holy Sepulchre, now has it in particular charge to check, to clog, to hinder, and embarrass all the courts and avenues of Law; the knight-combatant of the Saracen, breasting spear-points at Acre, now fights law-points in Westminster Hall. The helmet is a wig. Struck by Time's enchanter's Wand, the Templar is to-day a Lawyer." --Melville
ilrwbwrkhv 8y ago
break em up

98 points by blowski 8y ago

Not really secret. To join one of the guilds is to become part of a small club of extremely wealthy and/or well connected people, and the establishment in particular. One route to entry is through charitable donations, and it's one of the more direct means of exchanging money for power/influence in the UK.

rum3 8y ago
Why is nothing being done about this?
- growse 8y ago
  What, exactly, would you propose?
  - YUMad 8y ago
    Eat the rich?
- tobylane 8y ago
  A lot of power has been taken away from the City and given to the city (from the square mile to the mayor/Assembly). Now it’s vestigial and liked.
mstade 8y ago
I don’t know whether this is true because I never looked into it really, but a colleague of mine in the ndustry told me I could join the banker’s guild. His words were that because I lived in the city[1] at the time, and also worked for a bank in the city, I’d be eligible for membership if the bank would nominate or sponsor me as a representative. I’m hazy on the details, it was years ago, and I don’t really know whether it’s true since as mentioned I never checked it out. I kind of regret not doing so now though, since moving out of the city I’ve learned much more of it’s (weird and interesting) history and it would’ve been fun to at least try to see some of this from the inside. It probably wouldn’t have worked anyway, but would’ve been fun to try. For anyone looking for a fun little intro to the weirdness of the city and it’s history, I recommend CGP Grey’s channel and particularly his videos on the City of London[2][3]. [1]: for the benefit of people who might not be aware – “the city” is a colloquialism for the City of London, which is a small somewhat autonomous part of London, situated east of what most people (who don’t know this) probably think of when you say the city of London. [2]: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LrObZ_HZZUc https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LrObZ_HZZUc [3]: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z1ROpIKZe-c https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z1ROpIKZe-c
- cmmeur01 8y ago
  Here is an eye-opening look at how the city operates in the modern day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np_ylvc8Zj8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=np_ylvc8Zj8
personjerry 8y ago
Are there other routes to entry, more accessible to you and I?
- fredley 8y ago
  In a word, no.
rusk 8y ago
> Not really secret. A freemason friend of mine once explained to me that they're described as "a secret society" not because they try to hide their existence, but because they have secrets. i.e. shared secrets that they use as a means to authenticate to one another their membership and status. To me, this seems like an alternative and valid interpretation of the term to the one that you have inferred.

xiphias2 8y ago

Good luck to them, but new money is coming fast. They either go along with great new tech investments or lose out over time. Maybe I was just lucky in the past years, but as a person working in tech, coming from a poor family, but with access to great education, I see beating the market as easy. I won't give tips here, because I'm in the minority and I would be voted down (which I see as a prerequisite for making returns).

scarejunba 8y ago
They have land. Land usually beats inflation.
- Latteland 8y ago
  Tell that to the barons whose grandchildren or later are plumbers. Not that there's anything wrong with that ;-), but it's not the same as so rich you never work.
  - barrkel 8y ago
    Descendants are subject to inflation though.
    - OJFord 8y ago
      And dilution.
- xiphias2 8y ago
  Land is worth a lot, and still more than other assets, but relative value of non-tangible assets are increasing exponentially compared to land.
  - fastball 8y ago
    Yet land is the only true zero-sum game in economics.
  - 8y ago

scottlocklin 8y ago

I dunno why they used the adjective "secret" -there's nothing secret about them. You drive by enormous buildings with their names on 'em in London, and there's a detailed wikipedia entry listing them all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livery_company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livery_company or for HN https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worshipful_Company_of_Information_Technologists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worshipful_Company_of_Informat... It's a cool piece of deep culture that the UK has. Other European countries have such things as well (usually Catholic religious confraternities or dinner clubs), though nothing like this dense concentration.

pjc50 8y ago
Not only that, they have a big annual parade with their names all over the place. Maybe they mean "secret" in the sense of "not in the press every single week, because the press have the memory of a goldfish"? The use of charitable foundations to concentrate money and pay generous salaries while being exempt from tax is definitely a problem, but it's shared by quite a few charities in the UK, including some of the private schools.
- wallace_f 8y ago
  I would go a step further and say charity, as a Western institution, is generally misunderstood. There is an economist, Bill Easterly, who has written extensively about what much of Western aid/charity is actually accomplishing, and it's often not charity. You have the Red Cross losing half a billion in charitable donations and this kind of thing never makes front-page news(1). Now not 100% of charity is bad, but it is my opinion that if someone is aware of such things noted above, this article reads like a manipulative, deliberate hit-piece against these old-money groups, probably for some political reason. 1-https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15326335 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15326335
twic 8y ago
I only found out about German academic fencing clubs recently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Student_Corps https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Student_Corps As i understand it, they function in part as social networks for the upper class, a bit like masonic lodges, or the Skull and Bones etc. I came across them because there's a social networking platform for members which has the same initials as a communication protocol i was interested in.

walrus01 8y ago

Is there anything stopping a group of totally random individuals from renting a small office somewhere in the City, and calling themselves the Worshipful Society of Penetration Testers or similar? I guess they wouldn't be invited to the parade...

vidarh 8y ago
They'd need official recognition to be considered a livery company, and that would take some effort. But nothing would stop them from starting out as a 'normal' charity. There is the Worshipful Company of Information Technologists(1). I looked at it some years ago but didn't end up joining. It's relatively open - you need a member or two to nominate you, but they have social events specifically open to non-members in part for the purpose of giving prospective members the opportunity to find someone who would be willing. (1): http://wcit.org.uk http://wcit.org.uk

billfruit 8y ago

Similarly, the Inns of Court system of the legal profession where London lawyers train and work, is also fascinating to know about. Even the four Inn names Inner Temple, Middle Temple, Garry's Inn and Lincoln's Inn have something romantic about them. Melville wrote an interesting story about them "Paradise of Bachelors" (Which is paired with another story "Tartarus of Maids" ).

darrenf 8y ago
> Garry's Inn Actually Gray's Inn.
pmoriarty 8y ago
"Melville wrote an interesting story about them "Paradise of Bachelors" (Which is paired with another story "Tartarus of Maids" )." Both can be read here: https://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/i2l/par-tar.html https://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/i2l/par-tar.html
billfruit 8y ago
"The genuine Templar is long since departed. Go view the wondrous tombs in the Temple Church; see there the rigidly-haughty forms stretched out, with crossed arm upon their stilly hearts, in everlasting and undreaming rest. Like the years before the flood, the bold Knights-Templars are no more. Nevertheless, the name remains, and the nominal society, and the ancient grounds, and some of the ancient edifices. But the iron heel is changed to a boot of patent-leather; the long two-handed sword to a one-handed quill; the monk-giver of gratuitous ghostly counsel now counsels for a fee; the defender of the sarcophagus (if in good practice with his weapon) now has more than one case to defend; the vowed opener and clearer of all highways leading to the Holy Sepulchre, now has it in particular charge to check, to clog, to hinder, and embarrass all the courts and avenues of Law; the knight-combatant of the Saracen, breasting spear-points at Acre, now fights law-points in Westminster Hall. The helmet is a wig. Struck by Time's enchanter's Wand, the Templar is to-day a Lawyer." --Melville

ilrwbwrkhv 8y ago

break em up