4 ms·

> I wonder what it's caused by and how we can encourage it Probably because many Germans have a relatively recent memory of the Stasi in the DDR.

lucb1e 8y ago
The Dutch probably do to a similar extent. We were quite involved in the war, unfortunately, and burning records to avoid involving jews/romas/homos/etc. But yeah it's the only thing I can think of as well. I still can't pinpoint what argument it is that they are implicitly taught that we aren't.
- Krasnol 8y ago
  Stasi is not that long ago. People tend to forget what the problem was during WW2. See rise of right wing parties (also in Germany...).
  - robotrout 8y ago
    Censorship seems to be coming from the left. I think it makes sense for everybody to maintain as much privacy from .gov as possible.
    - eropple 8y ago
      So...you are aware that "saying that makes you an asshole" and "you can't say that" are different things, yes?
      - robotrout 8y ago
        Attacks on free speech in USA and Europe have nothing to do with offensive language and everything to do with control. Be careful what precedents you set and what things you celebrate. Pendulums swing. Are you referring to this? I don't think anybody tried to censor her for this, even though it was incredibly offensive. https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/tlaib-going-to-impeach-motherfucker https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/tlaib-going-to-impeach-mo...
        Krasnol 8y ago
        And here we go with the currently popular victim game which also brings the famous "censorship vs. moderation" trope and the "das wird man doch wohl noch sagen dürfen" classic. Please...this is ridiculous. Nobody falls for that besides the right wingers themselves. Nobody wants the right circle jerk in their comment section. The same way the right doesn't want any criticism of their behavior within their own bubble portals.
        afiori 8y ago
        both the left and the right are in a bubble. Generally speaking assume that between your in-group there are as many bad people as in your out-group. It is hard to make example that would not further polarize this thread, but I can promise you that the same intolerance and bubbles are present on both side of the political spectrum (for sure in the US, even if I live in Germany now I don't know much about this country...)
        Krasnol 8y ago
        I don't complain about bubbles. I brought the bubble up to demonstrate that the right is moderating all kinds of not fitting content where they are able to. The big conspiracy the right wants to paint here based about moderation of their hate speech or pure insulting language is something that is being reinforced through their political figureheads and sold as censorship. I did not see anything like that on the other side (yet). It's a disgusting and ridiculous play, especially in regard of real censorship which is really out there today.
      - int_19h 8y ago
        In Germany, it's "you can't say that", which is I think what he's talking about. Germany is probably the most extreme in the Western world in that regard - they have e.g. a court that can ban political parties if their platform is "counter to the free democratic basic order". Not to mention minor censorship, like excising swastikas and mentions of Hitler (ironically, a recent example was with a game about how Nazis are bad and you should fight them). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streitbare_Demokratie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streitbare_Demokratie
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- codetrotter 8y ago
  I think they are taught the same that the rest of us are, but their country has the first hand experience that enables them to see and understand on a deeper level just how important civil liberties and privacy is. Nazi Germany passed laws restricting the public and private lives of “non-aryans” and other groups of people that they deemed lesser. With such laws, they turned the country from a democracy to a dictatorship. The nazis proceeded to kill millions of people, most of them Jewish. And after that, there was like the parent commenter said the Stasi in East Germany, who was subjecting millions of people to mass surveillance. And like I said, they have the first hand experience, so it certainly is more ingrained and near to life for the people of Germany than it is to everyone else.
sowbug 8y ago
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_Others https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_Others if you don't personally have that memory but would like to understand it.
- lower 8y ago
  While this is a good movie, one should be aware that it does not reflect the reality in Eastern Germany all that well. It's not a documentary. In preparation for the film, the director asked Christoph Hein, an Eastern German writer, to describe the typical life of a writer in Eastern Germany (which is what the film is about). At the premiere, Hein's name was included in the opening credits, but he asked to have it removed, because he couldn't see his story in the film. He described the film as being more of a dark fairy tale than a depiction of life in 80s Eastern Germany.
  - everybodyknows 8y ago
    >he couldn't see his story in the film ... Published comments, just last month. In German -- would any bilinguals care to summarize? https://www.sueddeutsche.de/kultur/donnersmarck-hein-das-leben-der-anderen-1.4300244 https://www.sueddeutsche.de/kultur/donnersmarck-hein-das-leb...
    - Zeratoss 8y ago
      He describes the movie as an overly dramatic dark fairy tale and says he doesn't recognize himself in the main character. As far as specific criticism goes, he says the way the main character has to write in secrecy and is suppressed by the Stasi is inaccurate. He says his room was bugged in the 60s but the 80s in the DDR were supposedly much more liberal than what the film shows.
      - sowbug 8y ago
        I read only the automatic Google translation to English, so this might be a misreading, but he does seem to recognize that he was being a little too pedantic in expecting historical accuracy in a dramatic work.
tptacek 8y ago
That's nice and all, and I don't doubt it, but in this instance, that cultural memory is (ironically) leading Germans to use inferior cryptography, and isn't serving them well.
- lucb1e 8y ago
  Care to substantiate? What inferior encryption are you talking about?
  - e12e 8y ago
    Presumably old encryption/sign constructs used by pgp/gpg coupled with issues with serialization/de-serialization of data/cipher text?
    - afiori 8y ago
      you know what is worse than inferior cryptography? no cryptography. security is a human problem and people like me needs a well supported tool with lots of tutorial and plugins for almost every application and a manageable sets of quirks. I agree that the illusion of security has drawbacks, but so does using too many tools that you don't properly understand.
      - rakoo 8y ago
        Actually inferior (aka broken) cryptography is worse than no cryptography, because it makes you feel safe when you should at least know you aren't.

lucb1e 8y ago

The Dutch probably do to a similar extent. We were quite involved in the war, unfortunately, and burning records to avoid involving jews/romas/homos/etc. But yeah it's the only thing I can think of as well. I still can't pinpoint what argument it is that they are implicitly taught that we aren't.

Krasnol 8y ago
Stasi is not that long ago. People tend to forget what the problem was during WW2. See rise of right wing parties (also in Germany...).
- robotrout 8y ago
  Censorship seems to be coming from the left. I think it makes sense for everybody to maintain as much privacy from .gov as possible.
  - eropple 8y ago
    So...you are aware that "saying that makes you an asshole" and "you can't say that" are different things, yes?
    - robotrout 8y ago
      Attacks on free speech in USA and Europe have nothing to do with offensive language and everything to do with control. Be careful what precedents you set and what things you celebrate. Pendulums swing. Are you referring to this? I don't think anybody tried to censor her for this, even though it was incredibly offensive. https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/tlaib-going-to-impeach-motherfucker https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/tlaib-going-to-impeach-mo...
      - Krasnol 8y ago
        And here we go with the currently popular victim game which also brings the famous "censorship vs. moderation" trope and the "das wird man doch wohl noch sagen dürfen" classic. Please...this is ridiculous. Nobody falls for that besides the right wingers themselves. Nobody wants the right circle jerk in their comment section. The same way the right doesn't want any criticism of their behavior within their own bubble portals.
        afiori 8y ago
        both the left and the right are in a bubble. Generally speaking assume that between your in-group there are as many bad people as in your out-group. It is hard to make example that would not further polarize this thread, but I can promise you that the same intolerance and bubbles are present on both side of the political spectrum (for sure in the US, even if I live in Germany now I don't know much about this country...)
        Krasnol 8y ago
        I don't complain about bubbles. I brought the bubble up to demonstrate that the right is moderating all kinds of not fitting content where they are able to. The big conspiracy the right wants to paint here based about moderation of their hate speech or pure insulting language is something that is being reinforced through their political figureheads and sold as censorship. I did not see anything like that on the other side (yet). It's a disgusting and ridiculous play, especially in regard of real censorship which is really out there today.
    - int_19h 8y ago
      In Germany, it's "you can't say that", which is I think what he's talking about. Germany is probably the most extreme in the Western world in that regard - they have e.g. a court that can ban political parties if their platform is "counter to the free democratic basic order". Not to mention minor censorship, like excising swastikas and mentions of Hitler (ironically, a recent example was with a game about how Nazis are bad and you should fight them). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streitbare_Demokratie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streitbare_Demokratie
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
codetrotter 8y ago
I think they are taught the same that the rest of us are, but their country has the first hand experience that enables them to see and understand on a deeper level just how important civil liberties and privacy is. Nazi Germany passed laws restricting the public and private lives of “non-aryans” and other groups of people that they deemed lesser. With such laws, they turned the country from a democracy to a dictatorship. The nazis proceeded to kill millions of people, most of them Jewish. And after that, there was like the parent commenter said the Stasi in East Germany, who was subjecting millions of people to mass surveillance. And like I said, they have the first hand experience, so it certainly is more ingrained and near to life for the people of Germany than it is to everyone else.

sowbug 8y ago

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_Others https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lives_of_Others if you don't personally have that memory but would like to understand it.

lower 8y ago
While this is a good movie, one should be aware that it does not reflect the reality in Eastern Germany all that well. It's not a documentary. In preparation for the film, the director asked Christoph Hein, an Eastern German writer, to describe the typical life of a writer in Eastern Germany (which is what the film is about). At the premiere, Hein's name was included in the opening credits, but he asked to have it removed, because he couldn't see his story in the film. He described the film as being more of a dark fairy tale than a depiction of life in 80s Eastern Germany.
- everybodyknows 8y ago
  >he couldn't see his story in the film ... Published comments, just last month. In German -- would any bilinguals care to summarize? https://www.sueddeutsche.de/kultur/donnersmarck-hein-das-leben-der-anderen-1.4300244 https://www.sueddeutsche.de/kultur/donnersmarck-hein-das-leb...
  - Zeratoss 8y ago
    He describes the movie as an overly dramatic dark fairy tale and says he doesn't recognize himself in the main character. As far as specific criticism goes, he says the way the main character has to write in secrecy and is suppressed by the Stasi is inaccurate. He says his room was bugged in the 60s but the 80s in the DDR were supposedly much more liberal than what the film shows.
    - sowbug 8y ago
      I read only the automatic Google translation to English, so this might be a misreading, but he does seem to recognize that he was being a little too pedantic in expecting historical accuracy in a dramatic work.

tptacek 8y ago

That's nice and all, and I don't doubt it, but in this instance, that cultural memory is (ironically) leading Germans to use inferior cryptography, and isn't serving them well.

lucb1e 8y ago
Care to substantiate? What inferior encryption are you talking about?
- e12e 8y ago
  Presumably old encryption/sign constructs used by pgp/gpg coupled with issues with serialization/de-serialization of data/cipher text?
  - afiori 8y ago
    you know what is worse than inferior cryptography? no cryptography. security is a human problem and people like me needs a well supported tool with lots of tutorial and plugins for almost every application and a manageable sets of quirks. I agree that the illusion of security has drawbacks, but so does using too many tools that you don't properly understand.
    - rakoo 8y ago
      Actually inferior (aka broken) cryptography is worse than no cryptography, because it makes you feel safe when you should at least know you aren't.