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The whole gambling industry is a really a utility black hole. Human risk-taking impulses evolved so that we could decide to look around that corner, explore tha

The whole gambling industry is a really a utility black hole. Human risk-taking impulses evolved so that we could decide to look around that corner, explore that dense underbrush, see what happens if we rub some sticks together. Instead of directing those impulses toward making our lives better (eg. through scientific research, or making a better product more efficiently) people are having them exploited by the world’s most expensive video games. Please, if you’re going to make bets, stick to those that might have a positive expected value!

calvinmorrison 8y ago
It's called entertainment sweetie, look it up. Seriously I live near AC and go down a few times a year. Always have a blast. Usually there is awesome food, service and music going on as well. Gambling is exciting and fun, that's why I do it. It's no worse than blowing money on concert tickets or impulse amazon shopping.
- sjjshvuiajhz 8y ago
  Sure, if you can go once in a while, having a good understanding about how much money you will lose and can keep yourself from losing more trying to get it back, good for you. But the casino’s bread & butter are the people who show up every day.
  - Smithalicious 8y ago
    The first sentence describes most people who go to casinos, though. And the second sentence might be correct, I don't think it's something you can just assert without a source.
  - lbatx 8y ago
    That would not be true (at least in Las Vegas). For one, the vast majority of customers of Strip casinos are tourists. For another, a casino's quarterly results can be significantly influenced by a small handful of players -- if a player is particularly lucky at baccarat, for example, the swing can be millions of dollars. Source: industry knowledge & https://www.billionairegambler.com/2011/07/worlds-biggest-casino-whales-high.html https://www.billionairegambler.com/2011/07/worlds-biggest-ca... (look at the Adnan Khashoggi entry).
pessimizer 8y ago
I don't think that casino games should be illegal, but I certainly think they should be required to advertise the odds of each bet in a comprehensible manner: "For every $1 you spend at this machine, you should expect to win .95¢." I'd like to see the odds written that way under every craps bet, and see how many people keep playing.
- perl4ever 8y ago
  Suppose they lied about the odds. How would you prove it? e.g. int getRandomNumber() { return 42; }
  - dbcurtis 8y ago
    The Nevada State Gaming Commission has pretty much solved that. The thing I find ironic -- deploy a voting machine -- Maker: "Oh, no, we can't let you look at our code, it's waaaaay too complicated for you to understand. Trust us." But deploy a slot machine: "Nevada: Show us the code or go fish." Maker: "OK."
    - icelancer 8y ago
      And the penalties for lying are severe, most importantly.
    - dahfizz 8y ago
      I'm curious if there's any effort made to verify the code being reviewed is actually the code being run on the machines.
      - Animats 8y ago
        Yes. "Provide, as a minimum, a two-stage mechanism for verifying all program components on demand via a communication port and protocol approved by the chairman. The mechanism must employ a hashing algorithm which produces a messages digest output of a least 128 bits and must be designed to accept a user selected authentication key or seed to be used as part of the mechanism (i.e. HMAC SHA-1). The first stage of this mechanism must allow for verification of all control components. The second stage must allow for the verification of all program components, including graphics and data components in a maximum of 20 minutes. The mechanism for extracting the verification information must be stored on a Conventional ROM Device."[1] [1] https://gaming.nv.gov/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=2919 https://gaming.nv.gov/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=2...
aeternus 8y ago
For some, E[winnings] + entertainment value > cost even if E[winnings] < cost
- mikeash 8y ago
  That’s definitely true, but I wonder what the ratio is between people like that and people who don’t have a good grasp of the odds.
  - gotocake 8y ago
    I’m always amazed and appalled at just how bad most people I’ve met are with basic probabilities. Now that’s just my anecdote, but I think your ratio would strongly favor the casinos, which I guess explains why the casinos exist and thrive in the first place.
- skh 8y ago
  The only problem with your inequality is that for many “entertainment value” really means “addictive pull”.
  - anoncoward111 8y ago
    Additionally, most people's budgets are not robust enough where entertainment costs can even be factored in, especially those who are most vulnerable to gambling. The bulk of my budget goes to rent, car, and food :(
- abetusk 8y ago
  Uh, except for some the equation is really E[winnings] + (entertainment value) + (compulsion) > cost even if E[winnings] + (entertainment value) < cost
  - arcticbull 8y ago
    That's true of anything though.
Smithalicious 8y ago
I hate this "fun is inefficient" mentality that permiates HN. You're perhaps not wrong that most entertainment isn't optimally generating utility (for some definitions of "utility"), but this position is really hard for anyone the HN workaholic culture to empathize with.
- opportune 8y ago
  the vast majority of revenues from gambling comes from problematic gamblers. Nobody is saying we should make it illegal to go to the casino for a night every few months but the gambling industry doesn't really make money off those people except as a gateway drug. I doubt you could gain insight into the lives of a problem gambler and tell me it's even "fun".
  - Gene_Parmesan 8y ago
    Source?
  - Gibbon1 8y ago
    I think gambling is like booze in that respect. There is hardly any tail at all in the distribution. 5% of the drinkers are consuming 95% of the booze. Edit: Prostitution is probably also like that. Basically the three things that underpin Atlantic City right there.
- fastball 8y ago
  There is a big difference between a gambling addiction and "having some fun". In the same way that it is not healthy or productive to sit around all day masturbating, it is not healthy or productive to gamble in a casino. This does not require a "workaholic mentality" (which is itself a strange assertion -- can you not enjoy work? If you enjoy it, is it not fun?) to understand. At least with masturbation you're not literally throwing money down the hole.
  - intended 8y ago
    Fun is emotional and emotions are inherently rational. Healthy and productive are subjective judgements on how someone should live their life and have nothing To do with fun. The fact that someone enjoys work is happy coincidence for them. There’s many more people doing that exact same job who don’t have fun doing it- the vast majority of humanity does fun things to make their life worth living. A small percent of humanity enjoys its work; and a far smaller percent both enjoys their work and makes good Money while doing it. There’s no substantive foundation on which to discuss “fun” while also tacking on “healthy and productive.” Fun is essentially irrational.
x220 8y ago
>utility black hole What's your definition of utility?
skookumchuck 8y ago
> stick to those that might have a positive expected value! That would be stocks. Odds are you'll make money.
EricE 8y ago
Please don't refer to gambling as an industry. Industries produce things - all gambling produces is misery and social fallout. This is from someone who grew up near Vegas. Example: I was taking a college friend through a casino to get to the (at that time) cheap food and he paused and asked me what the big wheel was. I explained it was a paycheck cashing wheel - you cash your paycheck in the casino and they spin the wheel for a prize. He immediately saw it for the evil it was (with cash in hand impulse would likely win out and the casino get's your paycheck eventually); I was jaded and of course would never think of doing such a thing so I didn't think it any further. I felt rather stupid. Sometimes having an outsiders perspective is important. Sadly with the spread and legitimizing of gambling, the social costs are going to be pretty significant. It's still amazing to me to see the rush of people in the casinos at the first of the month after getting their social security checks. Evil and vile are too good of descriptors to be wasted on this "industry".
arcticbull 8y ago
I'm not sure that's a good way to look at it. I know the odds when I play craps or blackjack, I know that any random walk down the number line leads to me losing my bankroll. I also don't care. It's fun, it's stressful, it gets the adrenaline flowing, winning is fun, losing is even more fun. I keep myself to a budget and it's a good time. No more or less expensive/thrilling/entertaining than skydiving, jet skiing or whatever gets you going. I could throw $500 at skydiving or I could spend it on a trip to Vegas. This community loves startups -- and so do I. Startups fail 90% of the time to raise the next round of funding, every single time. Craps, your pass line odds bet pays even odds meaning your bet pays out exactly proportional to the odds of rolling that number -- there's no house edge. You don't think you can beat the odds, join a FAANG. That's not why were here though is it? We're all gamblers.

calvinmorrison 8y ago

It's called entertainment sweetie, look it up. Seriously I live near AC and go down a few times a year. Always have a blast. Usually there is awesome food, service and music going on as well. Gambling is exciting and fun, that's why I do it. It's no worse than blowing money on concert tickets or impulse amazon shopping.

sjjshvuiajhz 8y ago
Sure, if you can go once in a while, having a good understanding about how much money you will lose and can keep yourself from losing more trying to get it back, good for you. But the casino’s bread & butter are the people who show up every day.
- Smithalicious 8y ago
  The first sentence describes most people who go to casinos, though. And the second sentence might be correct, I don't think it's something you can just assert without a source.
- lbatx 8y ago
  That would not be true (at least in Las Vegas). For one, the vast majority of customers of Strip casinos are tourists. For another, a casino's quarterly results can be significantly influenced by a small handful of players -- if a player is particularly lucky at baccarat, for example, the swing can be millions of dollars. Source: industry knowledge & https://www.billionairegambler.com/2011/07/worlds-biggest-casino-whales-high.html https://www.billionairegambler.com/2011/07/worlds-biggest-ca... (look at the Adnan Khashoggi entry).

pessimizer 8y ago

I don't think that casino games should be illegal, but I certainly think they should be required to advertise the odds of each bet in a comprehensible manner: "For every $1 you spend at this machine, you should expect to win .95¢." I'd like to see the odds written that way under every craps bet, and see how many people keep playing.

perl4ever 8y ago
Suppose they lied about the odds. How would you prove it? e.g. int getRandomNumber() { return 42; }
- dbcurtis 8y ago
  The Nevada State Gaming Commission has pretty much solved that. The thing I find ironic -- deploy a voting machine -- Maker: "Oh, no, we can't let you look at our code, it's waaaaay too complicated for you to understand. Trust us." But deploy a slot machine: "Nevada: Show us the code or go fish." Maker: "OK."
  - icelancer 8y ago
    And the penalties for lying are severe, most importantly.
  - dahfizz 8y ago
    I'm curious if there's any effort made to verify the code being reviewed is actually the code being run on the machines.
    - Animats 8y ago
      Yes. "Provide, as a minimum, a two-stage mechanism for verifying all program components on demand via a communication port and protocol approved by the chairman. The mechanism must employ a hashing algorithm which produces a messages digest output of a least 128 bits and must be designed to accept a user selected authentication key or seed to be used as part of the mechanism (i.e. HMAC SHA-1). The first stage of this mechanism must allow for verification of all control components. The second stage must allow for the verification of all program components, including graphics and data components in a maximum of 20 minutes. The mechanism for extracting the verification information must be stored on a Conventional ROM Device."[1] [1] https://gaming.nv.gov/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=2919 https://gaming.nv.gov/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=2...

aeternus 8y ago

For some, E[winnings] + entertainment value > cost even if E[winnings] < cost

mikeash 8y ago
That’s definitely true, but I wonder what the ratio is between people like that and people who don’t have a good grasp of the odds.
- gotocake 8y ago
  I’m always amazed and appalled at just how bad most people I’ve met are with basic probabilities. Now that’s just my anecdote, but I think your ratio would strongly favor the casinos, which I guess explains why the casinos exist and thrive in the first place.
skh 8y ago
The only problem with your inequality is that for many “entertainment value” really means “addictive pull”.
- anoncoward111 8y ago
  Additionally, most people's budgets are not robust enough where entertainment costs can even be factored in, especially those who are most vulnerable to gambling. The bulk of my budget goes to rent, car, and food :(
abetusk 8y ago
Uh, except for some the equation is really E[winnings] + (entertainment value) + (compulsion) > cost even if E[winnings] + (entertainment value) < cost
- arcticbull 8y ago
  That's true of anything though.

Smithalicious 8y ago

I hate this "fun is inefficient" mentality that permiates HN. You're perhaps not wrong that most entertainment isn't optimally generating utility (for some definitions of "utility"), but this position is really hard for anyone the HN workaholic culture to empathize with.

opportune 8y ago
the vast majority of revenues from gambling comes from problematic gamblers. Nobody is saying we should make it illegal to go to the casino for a night every few months but the gambling industry doesn't really make money off those people except as a gateway drug. I doubt you could gain insight into the lives of a problem gambler and tell me it's even "fun".
- Gene_Parmesan 8y ago
  Source?
- Gibbon1 8y ago
  I think gambling is like booze in that respect. There is hardly any tail at all in the distribution. 5% of the drinkers are consuming 95% of the booze. Edit: Prostitution is probably also like that. Basically the three things that underpin Atlantic City right there.
fastball 8y ago
There is a big difference between a gambling addiction and "having some fun". In the same way that it is not healthy or productive to sit around all day masturbating, it is not healthy or productive to gamble in a casino. This does not require a "workaholic mentality" (which is itself a strange assertion -- can you not enjoy work? If you enjoy it, is it not fun?) to understand. At least with masturbation you're not literally throwing money down the hole.
- intended 8y ago
  Fun is emotional and emotions are inherently rational. Healthy and productive are subjective judgements on how someone should live their life and have nothing To do with fun. The fact that someone enjoys work is happy coincidence for them. There’s many more people doing that exact same job who don’t have fun doing it- the vast majority of humanity does fun things to make their life worth living. A small percent of humanity enjoys its work; and a far smaller percent both enjoys their work and makes good Money while doing it. There’s no substantive foundation on which to discuss “fun” while also tacking on “healthy and productive.” Fun is essentially irrational.

x220 8y ago

>utility black hole What's your definition of utility?

skookumchuck 8y ago

> stick to those that might have a positive expected value! That would be stocks. Odds are you'll make money.

EricE 8y ago

Please don't refer to gambling as an industry. Industries produce things - all gambling produces is misery and social fallout. This is from someone who grew up near Vegas. Example: I was taking a college friend through a casino to get to the (at that time) cheap food and he paused and asked me what the big wheel was. I explained it was a paycheck cashing wheel - you cash your paycheck in the casino and they spin the wheel for a prize. He immediately saw it for the evil it was (with cash in hand impulse would likely win out and the casino get's your paycheck eventually); I was jaded and of course would never think of doing such a thing so I didn't think it any further. I felt rather stupid. Sometimes having an outsiders perspective is important. Sadly with the spread and legitimizing of gambling, the social costs are going to be pretty significant. It's still amazing to me to see the rush of people in the casinos at the first of the month after getting their social security checks. Evil and vile are too good of descriptors to be wasted on this "industry".

arcticbull 8y ago

I'm not sure that's a good way to look at it. I know the odds when I play craps or blackjack, I know that any random walk down the number line leads to me losing my bankroll. I also don't care. It's fun, it's stressful, it gets the adrenaline flowing, winning is fun, losing is even more fun. I keep myself to a budget and it's a good time. No more or less expensive/thrilling/entertaining than skydiving, jet skiing or whatever gets you going. I could throw $500 at skydiving or I could spend it on a trip to Vegas. This community loves startups -- and so do I. Startups fail 90% of the time to raise the next round of funding, every single time. Craps, your pass line odds bet pays even odds meaning your bet pays out exactly proportional to the odds of rolling that number -- there's no house edge. You don't think you can beat the odds, join a FAANG. That's not why were here though is it? We're all gamblers.