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Amazon's spectacle reminds me of Lebron's "The Decision". It's one thing to work out the details and make an announcement, but to purposefully turn it into a sh

Amazon's spectacle reminds me of Lebron's "The Decision". It's one thing to work out the details and make an announcement, but to purposefully turn it into a show about "What can you do for me?" instead of "Here's what I can do for you" made it not sit well with people. Also, the pull-out letter also basically dumps the blame on state/local officials for not wanting Amazon, despite not all stakeholders being present at the table when discussions started.

mav3rick 8y ago
LeBron's Decision 1 was a lot of money for him. He had the talent to back that up.
- jfnixon 8y ago
  And the company that owns vast swaths of cloud computing space doesn't have talent to back it up? Amazon is way more dominant than LeBron in their respective businesses.
  - will_brown 8y ago
    I don’t know about having more talent, but amazon definitely has more ego...At least LeBron didn’t demand special tax deals and non-public data from cities to bring his talents.
    - dagoat 8y ago
      > At least LeBron didn’t demand special tax deals and non-public data from cities to bring his talents. As is common with other, bigger ego, basketball players
    - joejerryronnie 8y ago
      No, Lebron just demands the coach be fired, management take on horrible contracts for Lebron's buddies, and all organizational decisions be run by him. Truly, Lebron's lack of ego is staggering.
    - robterrell 8y ago
      OMG don't give basketball players this idea. Cities would totally write tax exemptions into law to land LeBron!
      - josephv 8y ago
        Haha, this is brilliant. Exempt NBA Star X from all state income tax if they play for the team - that seems completely believable. Obviously NBA rules relate to tampering would come into play, but it would be a compelling story for the 24 hour sports new cycle. I've read about athletes at least considering the income tax of a state in their decision, but I'm not sure it's ever been a deciding factor.
        wolco 8y ago
        Tampering? Not if the law was written to say anyone making over 25 million playing professional basketball. Getting reelected will be an issue.
    - balls187 8y ago
      Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. First, state income tax is exactly that, income tax imposed by the state, and governed by the state. There may be local jurisdictions that impose additional income tax but any savings there would be trivial. While sports are important to the local economy, my understanding is that they are relatively minor at the state level. Second, LeBron (and other athletes) earn playing income in every jurisdiction they play in, not based solely on the jurisdiction that the team is based in. This means they are responsible for filing taxes in each of these jurisdiction. In addition to playing income, they make money through endorsements and other investments. These are considered income in whatever state they claim is their residence. It's in a players interest to establish a residence in an area with favorable tax laws. Cities may try to woo elite players to join them, but tax savings isn't very compelling.
      - CWuestefeld 8y ago
        LeBron (and other athletes) earn playing income in every jurisdiction they play in, not based solely on the jurisdiction that the team is based in. ... This means they are responsible for filing taxes in each of these jurisdiction. Do you have a citation for this? I'm skeptical. I live and work in Texas. When I travel to my company's office in NJ, effectively earning income for a week in that state, I don't pay NJ income tax on that income.
        cpmsmith 8y ago
        Apparently you technically should, but you aren't expected to because it would be impractical. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jock_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jock_tax
        balls187 8y ago
        Unfortunately I am not an accountant and cannot give you tax advise, however, NJ has a non-resident income tax form, which you may be required to file: https://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/taxtables.shtml https://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/taxtables.shtml Edit to add: According to my interpretation of this: https://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/pdf/current/1040nri.pdf https://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/pdf/current/1040nr... Assuming your income is over $20,000, you ARE required to file a NJ state tax return. Also, note that even if you don't file a tax return, doesn't mean you are exempted from doing so. Example, as a citizen of Texas, you are also required to pay use tax on any items aquired out of state/country and used in the state. My assumption is that you don't also pay that either, even thought you are legally required to do so. It turns out that use Tax is particularly difficult to audit and collect for, especially without a mandatory return like state income tax.
    - xzel 8y ago
      Ironically, wasn't that one of the reasons people speculated during that process as to why he chose Miami, no income tax? Its obviously not some sweetheart deal but he could have formed a super team in any city that was willing to pay a few super max-ish contracts.
  - Eyes 8y ago
    This comparison is more absurd than apples to oranges
pradn 8y ago
LeBron's show raised like $6 million for various charities, so that's commendable.
- yyyymmddhhmmss 8y ago
  With corporate charity arrangements, how “commendable” it is always remains to be seen.
- samstave 8y ago
  I am of the opinion that any and all "Foundations" should be required to put their financials into a common splunk log repo with NLP search tools made available to anyone.
  - rory096 8y ago
    IRS Form 990s are publicly available. https://www.open990.com/org/020716277/the-lebron-james-family-foundation/ https://www.open990.com/org/020716277/the-lebron-james-famil...
  - Declanomous 8y ago
    Meaning donations, who gave them, etc? I'm a nonprofit fundraising professional, and I could probably talk about all the reasons why that is a horrible idea for 2-3 hours straight without repeating myself. I mean, at the very least, it's a bad idea for the same reason that exposing all the financials of every individual, or all other organizations, with the added benefit that you'd be opening people up to harassment for supporting certain social causes or belonging to certain religious groups. You might as well start a government mailing list called "hate crime targets." If you think there are a lot of non-charitable transactions occurring using charities as a front, it would be a way better idea to just have the IRS audit more 501c3 orgs. If you are trying to decrease fraud, it would almost certainly make more sense to audit wealthy individuals and for-profit corporations far more often.
    - seanp2k2 8y ago
      While I agree with most of what you wrote, there are already countries where all individuals' tax returns are public https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article182018561.html https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/artic...
ceejayoz 8y ago
Not just "What can you do for me", but "We'd never consider you for a HQ in a million years, but by all means give us a bunch of business intelligence gathered on your own dime we can use to site fulfillment warehouses..."
- mayukh 8y ago
  Curious, what kind of data would these public entities have that Amazon wouldn't already ?
  - ceejayoz 8y ago
    Look at page 7 of the RFP: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/G/01/Anything/test/images/usa/RFP_3._V516043504_.pdf https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/G/01/Anything... A good portion of all of that is stuff Amazon could compile, but they got cities across the country to donate probably tens of thousands of hours of taxpayer salaries to do it instead. The nature of special incentives each proposal offered - custom ones for Amazon-only, or unusual ones - will also have told them which cities they've got extra leverage over if they come offering a smaller project like a distribution center. https://www.citylab.com/life/2017/11/the-extreme-amazon-bidder-just-got-real/546857/ https://www.citylab.com/life/2017/11/the-extreme-amazon-bidd... > The most jarring incentive reportedly comes out of Chicago, which, under state law, could redirect between 50 and 100 percent of the income taxes incurred by Amazon employees right back to Amazon.
    - sct202 8y ago
      Non-standardized data from hundreds of different cities is probably more trouble than it's worth in aggregate.
      - ceejayoz 8y ago
        It's probably quite a bit easier for Amazon to standardize in this form than having to do the initial legwork themselves.
    - 8y ago
kevintb 8y ago
yep, yep, yep. precisely.
pvg 8y ago
but to purposefully turn it into a show A big difference is that contrived drama is at the very core of the entertainment business of professional sports. It makes for much of the entertainment! It's less helpful in the more mundane enterprise of 'building a bunch of offices and warehouses'.
- alexis_fr 8y ago
  Cough Trump Cough. It does look like Amazon tried to stir the same soup as Trump, and it doesn’t work (Note that I won’t defend that it worked for Trump, it’s just that it may have made it seem ok to pull money from cities using newspapers, because of that precedent).
  - pvg 8y ago
    I don't really see any connection. My point is that for the business LeBron James and the NBA are in, spectacle is part of the product and people burning LeBron jerseys in Akron is business well done. People in Long Island City calling their political representatives and yelling at them about how they don't want your offices and warehouses is not business well done if you have 'building warehouses and offices' as a goal.
dandersh 8y ago
This is a poor analogy for multiple reasons: 1. Basketball is entertainment, and 'The Decision' was the result of years of speculation by the fans and the media. Furthermore you see similar spectacles for such things as National Signing Day, where top recruits hold press conferences to announce what college they are attending. 2. There is animosity and jealousy towards 'entitled millionaire athletes' that was made worse with players being able to control their own destiny instead of suffering under terrible management. "If they get to choose where to work and do so with their friends, why can't I" yells Joe Six-Pack. 3. The super team. Somehow NBA fans forgot or were ignorant of how absolutely stacked championship teams had been throughout history, featuring multiple hall of fame players and coaches. Elements of #2 play into this as well where it is management, not players, that should build championship teams. 4. A player like LBJ is far, far more likely to deliver (which he did with multiple championships) in the NBA than a company like Amazon is to deliver a value worth the taxpayer dollars they absorb.
- dopamean 8y ago
  It's a fine analogy used in the way they used it. Drawing attention to yourself for a decision you know is going to be controversial only makes it more controversial and draws out even louder criticism.
l9k 8y ago
Antoine Griezmann did the same thing last year, finally staying at Atletico de Madrid with a huge new contract
- paganel 8y ago
  On top of that he is a big NBA fan so that he might have “stolen” the idea from LeBron. Also, he kind of was mocked for the whole thing, he’s no Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo so the majority of football fans wasn’t that interested in his future club (even though he still is a pretty good player nonetheless).
samstave 8y ago
I am announcing an exploratory committee on whether or not I may or may not Apply for YCS19 - I wont tell you if I will apply or not - or how much money my [stealth] startup-unicorn will attempt to raise for an innovative and world-changing product we have yet to decide on seeking a co-founder for. But I am telling you now that I am planning on letting you know, at the end of this quarter - or maybe next month or who knows when, that I am looking into a potential announcement about this announcement where I tell you if I will make a further announcement about my announcements. #YCFundMeToo
- mjfl 8y ago
  I think what's notable is that they can do that and people care - Lebron and Amazon are both desirable enough that people cared. You (and I) are not desirable enough that people care.
- peteretep 8y ago
  > #YCFundMeToo YC Fund "Me Too" -- I think you might want to let PR and HR take a look at this before you move forward with this name.
  - samstave 8y ago
    $ThatsTheJoke.bin
bko 8y ago
I don't see it as a "what can you do for me". A lot of Amazon's interest were aligned with that of many New Yorkers. Both Amazon and most New Yorkers want to have a strong transportation system and a diverse economy that doesn't just rely on taxing bloated financial bonuses to pay for services. They also want New York to be an in-demand tech hub with a deep labor pool and be a place where people actually want to live. Cities should strive to be places where employers want to invest. We aren't talking about handing over duffle bags of money to Bezos. They agreed to offset some of NYC's exorbitant taxes and regulations that make this city hostile to many businesses. And supposedly the incentives were available to any employer of that size. The fact is that having a large Amazon hub in NYC would greatly benefit the city and its denizens
- asdfasgasdgasdg 8y ago
  I'm of two minds on this issue, but: how can the city have good mass transit if there are no tax dollars to pay for it?
  - BurningFrog 8y ago
    One factor is that NY pays 5-10 times more than comparable cities to build its mass transit: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-...
    - seanp2k2 8y ago
      and in return for all that money, they receive the sewage waterfall: http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/05/penn-stations-latest-addition-a-sewage-waterfall.html http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/05/penn-stations-latest-... Honestly, why is this so hard when so much of the rest of the developed world manages to do it so well?
      - Blackthorn 8y ago
        The fact that NYC's transit runs 24/7 makes things really hard to fix, upgrade, change, etc.

mav3rick 8y ago

LeBron's Decision 1 was a lot of money for him. He had the talent to back that up.

jfnixon 8y ago
And the company that owns vast swaths of cloud computing space doesn't have talent to back it up? Amazon is way more dominant than LeBron in their respective businesses.
- will_brown 8y ago
  I don’t know about having more talent, but amazon definitely has more ego...At least LeBron didn’t demand special tax deals and non-public data from cities to bring his talents.
  - dagoat 8y ago
    > At least LeBron didn’t demand special tax deals and non-public data from cities to bring his talents. As is common with other, bigger ego, basketball players
  - joejerryronnie 8y ago
    No, Lebron just demands the coach be fired, management take on horrible contracts for Lebron's buddies, and all organizational decisions be run by him. Truly, Lebron's lack of ego is staggering.
  - robterrell 8y ago
    OMG don't give basketball players this idea. Cities would totally write tax exemptions into law to land LeBron!
    - josephv 8y ago
      Haha, this is brilliant. Exempt NBA Star X from all state income tax if they play for the team - that seems completely believable. Obviously NBA rules relate to tampering would come into play, but it would be a compelling story for the 24 hour sports new cycle. I've read about athletes at least considering the income tax of a state in their decision, but I'm not sure it's ever been a deciding factor.
      - wolco 8y ago
        Tampering? Not if the law was written to say anyone making over 25 million playing professional basketball. Getting reelected will be an issue.
  - balls187 8y ago
    Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. First, state income tax is exactly that, income tax imposed by the state, and governed by the state. There may be local jurisdictions that impose additional income tax but any savings there would be trivial. While sports are important to the local economy, my understanding is that they are relatively minor at the state level. Second, LeBron (and other athletes) earn playing income in every jurisdiction they play in, not based solely on the jurisdiction that the team is based in. This means they are responsible for filing taxes in each of these jurisdiction. In addition to playing income, they make money through endorsements and other investments. These are considered income in whatever state they claim is their residence. It's in a players interest to establish a residence in an area with favorable tax laws. Cities may try to woo elite players to join them, but tax savings isn't very compelling.
    - CWuestefeld 8y ago
      LeBron (and other athletes) earn playing income in every jurisdiction they play in, not based solely on the jurisdiction that the team is based in. ... This means they are responsible for filing taxes in each of these jurisdiction. Do you have a citation for this? I'm skeptical. I live and work in Texas. When I travel to my company's office in NJ, effectively earning income for a week in that state, I don't pay NJ income tax on that income.
      - cpmsmith 8y ago
        Apparently you technically should, but you aren't expected to because it would be impractical. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jock_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jock_tax
      - balls187 8y ago
        Unfortunately I am not an accountant and cannot give you tax advise, however, NJ has a non-resident income tax form, which you may be required to file: https://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/taxtables.shtml https://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/taxtables.shtml Edit to add: According to my interpretation of this: https://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/pdf/current/1040nri.pdf https://www.state.nj.us/treasury/taxation/pdf/current/1040nr... Assuming your income is over $20,000, you ARE required to file a NJ state tax return. Also, note that even if you don't file a tax return, doesn't mean you are exempted from doing so. Example, as a citizen of Texas, you are also required to pay use tax on any items aquired out of state/country and used in the state. My assumption is that you don't also pay that either, even thought you are legally required to do so. It turns out that use Tax is particularly difficult to audit and collect for, especially without a mandatory return like state income tax.
  - xzel 8y ago
    Ironically, wasn't that one of the reasons people speculated during that process as to why he chose Miami, no income tax? Its obviously not some sweetheart deal but he could have formed a super team in any city that was willing to pay a few super max-ish contracts.
- Eyes 8y ago
  This comparison is more absurd than apples to oranges

pradn 8y ago

LeBron's show raised like $6 million for various charities, so that's commendable.

yyyymmddhhmmss 8y ago
With corporate charity arrangements, how “commendable” it is always remains to be seen.
samstave 8y ago
I am of the opinion that any and all "Foundations" should be required to put their financials into a common splunk log repo with NLP search tools made available to anyone.
- rory096 8y ago
  IRS Form 990s are publicly available. https://www.open990.com/org/020716277/the-lebron-james-family-foundation/ https://www.open990.com/org/020716277/the-lebron-james-famil...
- Declanomous 8y ago
  Meaning donations, who gave them, etc? I'm a nonprofit fundraising professional, and I could probably talk about all the reasons why that is a horrible idea for 2-3 hours straight without repeating myself. I mean, at the very least, it's a bad idea for the same reason that exposing all the financials of every individual, or all other organizations, with the added benefit that you'd be opening people up to harassment for supporting certain social causes or belonging to certain religious groups. You might as well start a government mailing list called "hate crime targets." If you think there are a lot of non-charitable transactions occurring using charities as a front, it would be a way better idea to just have the IRS audit more 501c3 orgs. If you are trying to decrease fraud, it would almost certainly make more sense to audit wealthy individuals and for-profit corporations far more often.
  - seanp2k2 8y ago
    While I agree with most of what you wrote, there are already countries where all individuals' tax returns are public https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article182018561.html https://www.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/artic...

ceejayoz 8y ago

Not just "What can you do for me", but "We'd never consider you for a HQ in a million years, but by all means give us a bunch of business intelligence gathered on your own dime we can use to site fulfillment warehouses..."

mayukh 8y ago
Curious, what kind of data would these public entities have that Amazon wouldn't already ?
- ceejayoz 8y ago
  Look at page 7 of the RFP: https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/G/01/Anything/test/images/usa/RFP_3._V516043504_.pdf https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/G/01/Anything... A good portion of all of that is stuff Amazon could compile, but they got cities across the country to donate probably tens of thousands of hours of taxpayer salaries to do it instead. The nature of special incentives each proposal offered - custom ones for Amazon-only, or unusual ones - will also have told them which cities they've got extra leverage over if they come offering a smaller project like a distribution center. https://www.citylab.com/life/2017/11/the-extreme-amazon-bidder-just-got-real/546857/ https://www.citylab.com/life/2017/11/the-extreme-amazon-bidd... > The most jarring incentive reportedly comes out of Chicago, which, under state law, could redirect between 50 and 100 percent of the income taxes incurred by Amazon employees right back to Amazon.
  - sct202 8y ago
    Non-standardized data from hundreds of different cities is probably more trouble than it's worth in aggregate.
    - ceejayoz 8y ago
      It's probably quite a bit easier for Amazon to standardize in this form than having to do the initial legwork themselves.
  - 8y ago

kevintb 8y ago

yep, yep, yep. precisely.

pvg 8y ago

but to purposefully turn it into a show A big difference is that contrived drama is at the very core of the entertainment business of professional sports. It makes for much of the entertainment! It's less helpful in the more mundane enterprise of 'building a bunch of offices and warehouses'.

alexis_fr 8y ago
Cough Trump Cough. It does look like Amazon tried to stir the same soup as Trump, and it doesn’t work (Note that I won’t defend that it worked for Trump, it’s just that it may have made it seem ok to pull money from cities using newspapers, because of that precedent).
- pvg 8y ago
  I don't really see any connection. My point is that for the business LeBron James and the NBA are in, spectacle is part of the product and people burning LeBron jerseys in Akron is business well done. People in Long Island City calling their political representatives and yelling at them about how they don't want your offices and warehouses is not business well done if you have 'building warehouses and offices' as a goal.

dandersh 8y ago

This is a poor analogy for multiple reasons: 1. Basketball is entertainment, and 'The Decision' was the result of years of speculation by the fans and the media. Furthermore you see similar spectacles for such things as National Signing Day, where top recruits hold press conferences to announce what college they are attending. 2. There is animosity and jealousy towards 'entitled millionaire athletes' that was made worse with players being able to control their own destiny instead of suffering under terrible management. "If they get to choose where to work and do so with their friends, why can't I" yells Joe Six-Pack. 3. The super team. Somehow NBA fans forgot or were ignorant of how absolutely stacked championship teams had been throughout history, featuring multiple hall of fame players and coaches. Elements of #2 play into this as well where it is management, not players, that should build championship teams. 4. A player like LBJ is far, far more likely to deliver (which he did with multiple championships) in the NBA than a company like Amazon is to deliver a value worth the taxpayer dollars they absorb.

dopamean 8y ago
It's a fine analogy used in the way they used it. Drawing attention to yourself for a decision you know is going to be controversial only makes it more controversial and draws out even louder criticism.

l9k 8y ago

Antoine Griezmann did the same thing last year, finally staying at Atletico de Madrid with a huge new contract

paganel 8y ago
On top of that he is a big NBA fan so that he might have “stolen” the idea from LeBron. Also, he kind of was mocked for the whole thing, he’s no Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo so the majority of football fans wasn’t that interested in his future club (even though he still is a pretty good player nonetheless).

samstave 8y ago

I am announcing an exploratory committee on whether or not I may or may not Apply for YCS19 - I wont tell you if I will apply or not - or how much money my [stealth] startup-unicorn will attempt to raise for an innovative and world-changing product we have yet to decide on seeking a co-founder for. But I am telling you now that I am planning on letting you know, at the end of this quarter - or maybe next month or who knows when, that I am looking into a potential announcement about this announcement where I tell you if I will make a further announcement about my announcements. #YCFundMeToo

mjfl 8y ago
I think what's notable is that they can do that and people care - Lebron and Amazon are both desirable enough that people cared. You (and I) are not desirable enough that people care.
peteretep 8y ago
> #YCFundMeToo YC Fund "Me Too" -- I think you might want to let PR and HR take a look at this before you move forward with this name.
- samstave 8y ago
  $ThatsTheJoke.bin

bko 8y ago

I don't see it as a "what can you do for me". A lot of Amazon's interest were aligned with that of many New Yorkers. Both Amazon and most New Yorkers want to have a strong transportation system and a diverse economy that doesn't just rely on taxing bloated financial bonuses to pay for services. They also want New York to be an in-demand tech hub with a deep labor pool and be a place where people actually want to live. Cities should strive to be places where employers want to invest. We aren't talking about handing over duffle bags of money to Bezos. They agreed to offset some of NYC's exorbitant taxes and regulations that make this city hostile to many businesses. And supposedly the incentives were available to any employer of that size. The fact is that having a large Amazon hub in NYC would greatly benefit the city and its denizens

asdfasgasdgasdg 8y ago
I'm of two minds on this issue, but: how can the city have good mass transit if there are no tax dollars to pay for it?
- BurningFrog 8y ago
  One factor is that NY pays 5-10 times more than comparable cities to build its mass transit: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-construction-costs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/nyregion/new-york-subway-...
  - seanp2k2 8y ago
    and in return for all that money, they receive the sewage waterfall: http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/05/penn-stations-latest-addition-a-sewage-waterfall.html http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/05/penn-stations-latest-... Honestly, why is this so hard when so much of the rest of the developed world manages to do it so well?
    - Blackthorn 8y ago
      The fact that NYC's transit runs 24/7 makes things really hard to fix, upgrade, change, etc.