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We got a quote from sun run - it made us uncomfortable how all of their numbers assumed ridiculous utility rate increases. And our gut said we should just wait

We got a quote from sun run - it made us uncomfortable how all of their numbers assumed ridiculous utility rate increases. And our gut said we should just wait and purchase instead. A few years later solar prices came down and we made a purchase with an installer whose main business was purchase, not lease. edit: I responded below, but my complaint isn't with their price -- it's their scare tactics and fuzzy break even financial calculations assuming wild rate increases. We went with a vendor who was more open and honest about the break even calcs.

macspoofing 8y ago
To be fair, the cost of solar panels at the time you were considering them was what it was. Someone needed to pay for them. If that someone is Sunrun, they need to recoup those cost and make a return. You can be as creative as you want with the financing, that reality won't change. You could have gotten a bank loan too.
- CydeWeys 8y ago
  No, someone did not need to pay for them. That's not how the market works. If no one is willing to pay the listed price then the product goes unsold. Sunrun has no right to paying customers at any arbitrary price level, same as any other business.
  - eecc 8y ago
    And that’s why markets end up stuck in local minima. Unless you consider government subsidies, which is a way to collectively share the burden of overcoming temporary obstacles.
  - erobbins 8y ago
    It doesn't go unsold, everyone pays via subsidies.
    - chii 8y ago
      Why can't the business suffer losses instead of everyone pay subsidies?
      - j16sdiz 8y ago
        Because public traded business must be greedy in America. They will be sued by share holder of they are not greedy.
      - alasdair_ 8y ago
        >Why can't the business suffer losses instead of everyone pay subsidies? Because the old model of coal power plants makes people pay in other ways (pollution). Subsidies are reasonable if it means that the negative externalities are diminished.
        briandear 8y ago
        So let’s subsidize nuclear instead. Far more efficient than millions of people buying solar panels. Properly designed nuclear is proven technology.
        passivepinetree 8y ago
        You’re creating a bit of a false dichotomy here. There’s absolutely methods and reason to subsidize both forms of power. Both would be a vast improvement over coal/petroleum.
        petrocrat 8y ago
        Let's do both.
      - briandear 8y ago
        Because it’s politically popular to subsidize anointed industries.
- rrauenza 8y ago
  It's not their price I'm complaining about -- it's their financial break even model they pushed claiming huge increases in public utility rates -- which didn't seem realistic given recent history. It's in line with their scare tactics and emotional push.
- jsight 8y ago
  You aren't wrong, but, unfortunately a lot of consumers weren't aware of the real costs and were misled by companies offering these kinds of deals. I feel like it has done a lot of damage that is going to cost the residential solar industry a lot of money over the coming years.
  - oarsinsync 8y ago
    > You aren't wrong, but, unfortunately a lot of consumers weren't aware of the real costs and were misled by companies offering these kinds of deals This is the same model mobile phones have operated on in many countries for many years. Up front costs are subsidised by the carrier, who then proceeds to gouge you over the 12-24 month term to recoup that cost + a return. > I feel like it has done a lot of damage that is going to cost the residential solar industry a lot of money over the coming years. Possibly, given that the term lengths and financial costs are significantly higher. Unfortunately, the basic model itself is generally appreciated unless you've got the funds to pay up front. More unfortunate is that most people do not have the funds, so accept this trade off and move on.
    - jsight 8y ago
      A loan is a better option than a lease, IMO. The terms are generally less obfuscated with loan agreements as well.
rconti 8y ago
Sun Run's quotes were on par with every other installer we got, but I bought outright because I didn't want to have to deal with any of this nonsense.
justaguyhere 8y ago
Customers of Sunrun and other companies must sign binding arbitration clauses, barring them from suing or joining in class actions This is how unchecked capitalism looks like. How can this be legal? How is it that so many companies (Google, Sun Run...) are able to get away with forcing their employees and customers to sign away their rights like this? This is in addition to the fact that even if someone has the balls to sue Google and others, it would take massive resources, so most people aren't going to sue in the first place. Is it this bad in other western countries? or is it just the U.S?
- briandear 8y ago
  So don’t buy from Sunrun. It’s that simple. That’s how capitalism works. If they ask you to sign something as a condition of using their service, simply decline and they lose the sale.
  - richmarr 8y ago
    > So don’t buy from Sunrun. It’s that simple. That’s how capitalism works. That's how laissez-faire capitalism works, within bounds. Capitalism just means private ownership and trade; it doesn't dictate, or even imply, anything about regulation. In more regulated capitalist economies legal systems are quite happy declaring 'unfair' contracts to be void. For example in the UK a single unfair clause can invalidate the entire contract.
  - pixl97 8y ago
    "In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread." Your idea might work, if all companies didn't follow the same anti consumer rules. At some point a law becomes so favored to a business that the savings from anti consumerism dwarfs potential lost sales. Not enough people will realize they are being screwed in the first place.
    - nec4b 8y ago
      You're mixing an economic system with a legal framework.

macspoofing 8y ago

To be fair, the cost of solar panels at the time you were considering them was what it was. Someone needed to pay for them. If that someone is Sunrun, they need to recoup those cost and make a return. You can be as creative as you want with the financing, that reality won't change. You could have gotten a bank loan too.

CydeWeys 8y ago
No, someone did not need to pay for them. That's not how the market works. If no one is willing to pay the listed price then the product goes unsold. Sunrun has no right to paying customers at any arbitrary price level, same as any other business.
- eecc 8y ago
  And that’s why markets end up stuck in local minima. Unless you consider government subsidies, which is a way to collectively share the burden of overcoming temporary obstacles.
- erobbins 8y ago
  It doesn't go unsold, everyone pays via subsidies.
  - chii 8y ago
    Why can't the business suffer losses instead of everyone pay subsidies?
    - j16sdiz 8y ago
      Because public traded business must be greedy in America. They will be sued by share holder of they are not greedy.
    - alasdair_ 8y ago
      >Why can't the business suffer losses instead of everyone pay subsidies? Because the old model of coal power plants makes people pay in other ways (pollution). Subsidies are reasonable if it means that the negative externalities are diminished.
      - briandear 8y ago
        So let’s subsidize nuclear instead. Far more efficient than millions of people buying solar panels. Properly designed nuclear is proven technology.
        passivepinetree 8y ago
        You’re creating a bit of a false dichotomy here. There’s absolutely methods and reason to subsidize both forms of power. Both would be a vast improvement over coal/petroleum.
        petrocrat 8y ago
        Let's do both.
    - briandear 8y ago
      Because it’s politically popular to subsidize anointed industries.
rrauenza 8y ago
It's not their price I'm complaining about -- it's their financial break even model they pushed claiming huge increases in public utility rates -- which didn't seem realistic given recent history. It's in line with their scare tactics and emotional push.
jsight 8y ago
You aren't wrong, but, unfortunately a lot of consumers weren't aware of the real costs and were misled by companies offering these kinds of deals. I feel like it has done a lot of damage that is going to cost the residential solar industry a lot of money over the coming years.
- oarsinsync 8y ago
  > You aren't wrong, but, unfortunately a lot of consumers weren't aware of the real costs and were misled by companies offering these kinds of deals This is the same model mobile phones have operated on in many countries for many years. Up front costs are subsidised by the carrier, who then proceeds to gouge you over the 12-24 month term to recoup that cost + a return. > I feel like it has done a lot of damage that is going to cost the residential solar industry a lot of money over the coming years. Possibly, given that the term lengths and financial costs are significantly higher. Unfortunately, the basic model itself is generally appreciated unless you've got the funds to pay up front. More unfortunate is that most people do not have the funds, so accept this trade off and move on.
  - jsight 8y ago
    A loan is a better option than a lease, IMO. The terms are generally less obfuscated with loan agreements as well.

rconti 8y ago

Sun Run's quotes were on par with every other installer we got, but I bought outright because I didn't want to have to deal with any of this nonsense.

justaguyhere 8y ago

Customers of Sunrun and other companies must sign binding arbitration clauses, barring them from suing or joining in class actions This is how unchecked capitalism looks like. How can this be legal? How is it that so many companies (Google, Sun Run...) are able to get away with forcing their employees and customers to sign away their rights like this? This is in addition to the fact that even if someone has the balls to sue Google and others, it would take massive resources, so most people aren't going to sue in the first place. Is it this bad in other western countries? or is it just the U.S?

briandear 8y ago
So don’t buy from Sunrun. It’s that simple. That’s how capitalism works. If they ask you to sign something as a condition of using their service, simply decline and they lose the sale.
- richmarr 8y ago
  > So don’t buy from Sunrun. It’s that simple. That’s how capitalism works. That's how laissez-faire capitalism works, within bounds. Capitalism just means private ownership and trade; it doesn't dictate, or even imply, anything about regulation. In more regulated capitalist economies legal systems are quite happy declaring 'unfair' contracts to be void. For example in the UK a single unfair clause can invalidate the entire contract.
- pixl97 8y ago
  "In its majestic equality, the law forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets and steal loaves of bread." Your idea might work, if all companies didn't follow the same anti consumer rules. At some point a law becomes so favored to a business that the savings from anti consumerism dwarfs potential lost sales. Not enough people will realize they are being screwed in the first place.
  - nec4b 8y ago
    You're mixing an economic system with a legal framework.