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Good for Amazon and Netflix for helping to draw attention to broken tax law by taking full advantage of it. I hope this pushes more people to engage with the go

Good for Amazon and Netflix for helping to draw attention to broken tax law by taking full advantage of it. I hope this pushes more people to engage with the government to close ridiculous loopholes and simplify the tax code.

harryh 8y ago
What areas of the tax code do you think that Amazon is taking advantage of? What "ridiculous loopholes" do you think are problems in this specific case?
- ashelmire 8y ago
  Turning a large profit and not paying taxes? That part?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - Operyl 8y ago
    They're following the code, it's written in law. If they didn't take advantage of it, their stockholders would be pissed.
    - ashelmire 8y ago
      thatsthepoint.jpg The problem is that our tax laws allow immense, profitable corporations to pay nothing in federal taxes despite using massive amount of federally funded infrastructure in their course of doing business. How much burden do all those delivery trucks put on our federally funded roadways, bridges, and environment? And that's just the start of it...
  - umanwizard 8y ago
    Which specific sections of the tax code do you think should be repealed or amended?
    - komali2 8y ago
      If I knew the answer to that, I would also be paying 0 in tax. I'm allowed to be upset at the fact that it's possible, without knowing how they do it.
      - kyleblarson 8y ago
        Well approximately 45% of Americans pay no federal income tax.
        ashelmire 8y ago
        The 45% that are disabled, retired, unemployed, or who make barely enough to live? Who cares that they pay nothing. How many citizens have $10B in annual income and pay nothing in taxes? The effective tax rate for the top 1% of citizens is about 30%... what do you think it is for the top 1% of corporations?
      - umanwizard 8y ago
        So, given that you admit to not understanding the details of Amazon's accounting practices, how can you be so sure that what they're doing is wrong or bad?
        komali2 8y ago
        We're in the thread I started, where I lauded them for taking advantage of tax loopholes to not pay any tax. So, I'd be interested in why you believe I think what Amazon is doing is wrong. What I don't like is that companies are allowed to do this at all - I support more government sponsored measures such as universal healthcare and education, far greater investment in sciences, etc, and I believe corporations paying higher tax rates is a fantastic way to pay for these things.
    - ashelmire 8y ago
      The entirety of the tax code that allows them to pay under 20% of their profit in taxes.
- jachee 8y ago
  Just for interesting discussion: What kind of reasonable activity would you suggest would fairly negate a corporation's tax obligation? I.e. What can corporations do with their money—instead of giving it to the government—that would benefit the people as much or more than actually giving it to the government.
  - EpicEng 8y ago
    Reinvesting in said company for one, which is why carry over debt is deductible.
    - jachee 8y ago
      Sure, but how does that benefit the people of the U.S.?
      - EpicEng 8y ago
        How does growing a business benefit citizens? Jobs, economic stimulus, eventually larger taxes would be the obvious three. If you start disincentivizing reinvestment then, well... growth will slow. Same goes for losses. A calendar year is an arbitrary delineation of time. If your business loses $100 in one year and brings in $100 in revenue the next, do you really want them to pay taxes on said revenue? Seems a bit unfair, no? In a two year period they broke even, and that's not even considering what profits they may or may not have made. We want people to grow their businesses because it's generally good for everyone. Similarly, we tax profits, not revenue, because if we did the former companies would simply cut costs at every opportunity and never put money back in.
        jachee 8y ago
        Sounds a lot like Trickle Down Economics, which has been disproven time and again. Also: if amazon’s profit is double what it was last year, shouldn’t that profit be taxed? If they never pay taxes and continue exploiting labor, aren’t they a net drain on society?
onlyrealcuzzo 8y ago
Serious question: almost every economists thinks we shouldn't have corporate taxes. So why can't we just get rid of them and properly tax money as it LEAVES companies in the form of dividends or imports? Recently, stock buy-backs are causing people to get around income tax, so we'd have to fix capital gains, too. Taxing companies seems like a cop-out. It doesn't seem to have any impact at all on inequality. And it just makes American businesses less competitive.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- anonymous5133 8y ago
  Because we've already spent those tax dollars by allocating them to some spending program. In other words, we can't stop taxing corporations and based on current sentiments going around....the taxes on businesses are only going higher. I agree it is stupid to tax businesses due to how international our economies are getting. Foreign companies can ship product into the USA but pay no taxes in the USA so they get an economic advantage by being in the lowest taxed country. The only tax they pay is import taxes.
  - nightski 8y ago
    From my understanding the government pays for things by printing money. It's literally created on demand. Taxation and bonds/interest rates are partially used to take excess money supply out of the economy and control inflation (which is a highly simplified view of things).
  - anth_anm 8y ago
    > based on current sentiments going around....the taxes on businesses are only going higher They literally just slashed them.
  - nradov 8y ago
    Income taxes go into the general fund, they aren't allocated to specific spending programs. Obviously any complete elimination of corporate income taxes would have to be coupled with a tax increase on high-income individuals in order to make the change revenue neutral.
marcrosoft 8y ago
Fortunately no amount of US law restricts a foreign company. The U.S. Tax law stops at the U.S border. The U.S. needs to compete at the global level. Ireland's tax law is not by coincidence. Fortunately companies have a choice for now.
skookumchuck 8y ago
Being able to income average by carrying forward previous losses is not a ridiculous loophole. Many businesses have a much longer cycle of investment/payoff than a year. Boeing, for example, when they develop a new airplane like the 747, can have massive losses for 8 years or so before turning a profit.
jgalt212 8y ago
My cynical view is these loopholes will only close when small/midsized companies start to aggressively apply them. However, I fear that when the little guy does this there is a real risk of prison time, and no matter how far Apple and AMZN push the bounds of the law there is no way in hell Bezos or Cook would ever get arrested. https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-chickenshit-club-jesse-eisinger/1126244582?ean=9781501121364 https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-chickenshit-club-jesse-...
- anth_anm 8y ago
  No one got arrested for 2008. Has anyone been arrested for the Opiate crisis? Oligarchs don't have the same laws as the rest of us.
  - umanwizard 8y ago
    Let's imagine you were a federal prosecutor. Who specifically would you indict for the 2008 crisis, and on what specific charge?
    - anth_anm 8y ago
      Let's not, because it's a pointless exercise. I'm not a federal prosecutor with the powers to investigate the malfeasance of white collar criminals. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/magazine/only-one-top-banker-jail-financial-crisis.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/magazine/only-one-top-ban...
    - jgalt212 8y ago
      accounting fraud, for one. Banks carried so much unsold bonds on their books at prices that were nowhere near reality.
refurb 8y ago
How is it broken? Or are you suggesting taking away a carry loss forward deduction?
briandear 8y ago
How is it broken? If Amazon pays less taxes, that means the products I need are necessarily cheaper. A tax cut for Amazon is a discount to everyone that buys their products. That discount is more valuable for lower income people, which means that cutting taxes for Amazon means more disposable money in the pockets of their customers. I’m not sure how that’s a bad thing. Corporations don’t pay taxes: their customers do.

harryh 8y ago

What areas of the tax code do you think that Amazon is taking advantage of? What "ridiculous loopholes" do you think are problems in this specific case?

ashelmire 8y ago
Turning a large profit and not paying taxes? That part?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Operyl 8y ago
  They're following the code, it's written in law. If they didn't take advantage of it, their stockholders would be pissed.
  - ashelmire 8y ago
    thatsthepoint.jpg The problem is that our tax laws allow immense, profitable corporations to pay nothing in federal taxes despite using massive amount of federally funded infrastructure in their course of doing business. How much burden do all those delivery trucks put on our federally funded roadways, bridges, and environment? And that's just the start of it...
- umanwizard 8y ago
  Which specific sections of the tax code do you think should be repealed or amended?
  - komali2 8y ago
    If I knew the answer to that, I would also be paying 0 in tax. I'm allowed to be upset at the fact that it's possible, without knowing how they do it.
    - kyleblarson 8y ago
      Well approximately 45% of Americans pay no federal income tax.
      - ashelmire 8y ago
        The 45% that are disabled, retired, unemployed, or who make barely enough to live? Who cares that they pay nothing. How many citizens have $10B in annual income and pay nothing in taxes? The effective tax rate for the top 1% of citizens is about 30%... what do you think it is for the top 1% of corporations?
    - umanwizard 8y ago
      So, given that you admit to not understanding the details of Amazon's accounting practices, how can you be so sure that what they're doing is wrong or bad?
      - komali2 8y ago
        We're in the thread I started, where I lauded them for taking advantage of tax loopholes to not pay any tax. So, I'd be interested in why you believe I think what Amazon is doing is wrong. What I don't like is that companies are allowed to do this at all - I support more government sponsored measures such as universal healthcare and education, far greater investment in sciences, etc, and I believe corporations paying higher tax rates is a fantastic way to pay for these things.
  - ashelmire 8y ago
    The entirety of the tax code that allows them to pay under 20% of their profit in taxes.
jachee 8y ago
Just for interesting discussion: What kind of reasonable activity would you suggest would fairly negate a corporation's tax obligation? I.e. What can corporations do with their money—instead of giving it to the government—that would benefit the people as much or more than actually giving it to the government.
- EpicEng 8y ago
  Reinvesting in said company for one, which is why carry over debt is deductible.
  - jachee 8y ago
    Sure, but how does that benefit the people of the U.S.?
    - EpicEng 8y ago
      How does growing a business benefit citizens? Jobs, economic stimulus, eventually larger taxes would be the obvious three. If you start disincentivizing reinvestment then, well... growth will slow. Same goes for losses. A calendar year is an arbitrary delineation of time. If your business loses $100 in one year and brings in $100 in revenue the next, do you really want them to pay taxes on said revenue? Seems a bit unfair, no? In a two year period they broke even, and that's not even considering what profits they may or may not have made. We want people to grow their businesses because it's generally good for everyone. Similarly, we tax profits, not revenue, because if we did the former companies would simply cut costs at every opportunity and never put money back in.
      - jachee 8y ago
        Sounds a lot like Trickle Down Economics, which has been disproven time and again. Also: if amazon’s profit is double what it was last year, shouldn’t that profit be taxed? If they never pay taxes and continue exploiting labor, aren’t they a net drain on society?

onlyrealcuzzo 8y ago

Serious question: almost every economists thinks we shouldn't have corporate taxes. So why can't we just get rid of them and properly tax money as it LEAVES companies in the form of dividends or imports? Recently, stock buy-backs are causing people to get around income tax, so we'd have to fix capital gains, too. Taxing companies seems like a cop-out. It doesn't seem to have any impact at all on inequality. And it just makes American businesses less competitive.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
anonymous5133 8y ago
Because we've already spent those tax dollars by allocating them to some spending program. In other words, we can't stop taxing corporations and based on current sentiments going around....the taxes on businesses are only going higher. I agree it is stupid to tax businesses due to how international our economies are getting. Foreign companies can ship product into the USA but pay no taxes in the USA so they get an economic advantage by being in the lowest taxed country. The only tax they pay is import taxes.
- nightski 8y ago
  From my understanding the government pays for things by printing money. It's literally created on demand. Taxation and bonds/interest rates are partially used to take excess money supply out of the economy and control inflation (which is a highly simplified view of things).
- anth_anm 8y ago
  > based on current sentiments going around....the taxes on businesses are only going higher They literally just slashed them.
- nradov 8y ago
  Income taxes go into the general fund, they aren't allocated to specific spending programs. Obviously any complete elimination of corporate income taxes would have to be coupled with a tax increase on high-income individuals in order to make the change revenue neutral.

marcrosoft 8y ago

Fortunately no amount of US law restricts a foreign company. The U.S. Tax law stops at the U.S border. The U.S. needs to compete at the global level. Ireland's tax law is not by coincidence. Fortunately companies have a choice for now.

skookumchuck 8y ago

Being able to income average by carrying forward previous losses is not a ridiculous loophole. Many businesses have a much longer cycle of investment/payoff than a year. Boeing, for example, when they develop a new airplane like the 747, can have massive losses for 8 years or so before turning a profit.

jgalt212 8y ago

My cynical view is these loopholes will only close when small/midsized companies start to aggressively apply them. However, I fear that when the little guy does this there is a real risk of prison time, and no matter how far Apple and AMZN push the bounds of the law there is no way in hell Bezos or Cook would ever get arrested. https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-chickenshit-club-jesse-eisinger/1126244582?ean=9781501121364 https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/the-chickenshit-club-jesse-...

anth_anm 8y ago
No one got arrested for 2008. Has anyone been arrested for the Opiate crisis? Oligarchs don't have the same laws as the rest of us.
- umanwizard 8y ago
  Let's imagine you were a federal prosecutor. Who specifically would you indict for the 2008 crisis, and on what specific charge?
  - anth_anm 8y ago
    Let's not, because it's a pointless exercise. I'm not a federal prosecutor with the powers to investigate the malfeasance of white collar criminals. https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/magazine/only-one-top-banker-jail-financial-crisis.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/magazine/only-one-top-ban...
  - jgalt212 8y ago
    accounting fraud, for one. Banks carried so much unsold bonds on their books at prices that were nowhere near reality.

refurb 8y ago

How is it broken? Or are you suggesting taking away a carry loss forward deduction?

briandear 8y ago

How is it broken? If Amazon pays less taxes, that means the products I need are necessarily cheaper. A tax cut for Amazon is a discount to everyone that buys their products. That discount is more valuable for lower income people, which means that cutting taxes for Amazon means more disposable money in the pockets of their customers. I’m not sure how that’s a bad thing. Corporations don’t pay taxes: their customers do.