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> Except users lie all the time. That's the starting point for all the garbage enterprise apps I've ever used. Someone that has no clue what the users are doin

> Except users lie all the time. That's the starting point for all the garbage enterprise apps I've ever used. Someone that has no clue what the users are doing makes a decision about how best to design an app that they don't even know how to test. Don't ask them how to design the app. Ask them what they do with the app, then find the best way to get them where they need to go. Then let them test the first and second and third versions, and listen to their feedback without an assumption that "they just don't understand my genius". It's important to distinguish between casual social media app users and power users spending hours of their day using an app to get their work done.

vectorEQ 8y ago
ofcourse you dont ask them how to design. you are hired as the designer. ask them for specifications / limitations / painpoints in the current system etc. etc. and base your design upon their feedback on actual relevant questions. a plumber doesnt ask his customer how to plumb. just which pipes need fixin! doesn't go fix the toilet if the shower is broken :S
- chrismeller 8y ago
  I think the better analogy would be installing a whole new bathroom (it’s a redesign after all). In that case the plumber could and should ask where the sink is going, even if he was only told to move the toilet. Why? Because maybe the sewage line is over there and about to be covered over with concrete and they’ll have to tear up all of that to move it in two weeks, but the sink hadn’t arrived yet so no one told him that would move either. The point is not that the plumber is asking his customer how he should do his job, but that he can be more valuable if told the whole scope and impact of his job. Similarly you can’t just ask a user “how could this screen work better”, you need to watch them work so that you see that that screen isn’t even the problem - they’re clicking off of it 15 times every call - but you didn’t even know to ask about the other page.
  - erikpukinskis 8y ago
    > you can’t just ask a user “how could this screen work better” Why would you ask that anyway? You've already assumed the problem and solution at that point. You ask how it's going, very generally and let the conversation lead you to their pain points. You don't ask about the UI, which they are not an authority on. You ask about their subjective experience, which they are.
    - tabtab 8y ago
      The best approach is to watch them do their work and ask a lot of questions. For example, "Why did you have to leave this screen to go find X?"
      - mattkevan 8y ago
        'Why?' is a very powerful question. A few months ago I heard a talk by the chief product manager at a photo album printing company where he talked about an in-depth series of customer interviews they'd recently conducted. His advice was to keep asking why until you get to the root of why someone did something. However, if the answer you reach 'Because I don't want to die alone', then you've gone too far...
        tabtab 8y ago
        Or the answer is, "Because the last guy who didn't do X got fired."
        Mikerad1979 8y ago
        This technique is called a 5-Why in lean manufacturing. Useful tool in digging into a root cause, and helps people think deeply about the causes of issues that are not inherently obvious. Also, 5 is just the "suggested" number. More or less may be needed. If you reach 'Because I don't want to die alone' in 3 whys, probably no need to try for 5...
    - beamatronic 8y ago
      Perhaps you could measure the user instead, as in time taken to complete tasks.
jancsika 8y ago
> I've ever used. Someone that has no clue what the users are doing makes a decision about how best to design an app that they don't even know how to test. You're talking at cross-purposes. To get a sense of how people are interacting with the software you have to watch them interact with the software. The moment you ask them a question about UX you'll begin to get low quality input that you can't trust: * user is expressing an exaggerated desire for some esoteric feature that nobody else would use or discover * user is repeating what they think should be decent design * user is agreeing with a criticism they don't understand because they want to appear knowledgeable All of those and many other problems go away when you just watch somebody use an interface.
- TeMPOraL 8y ago
  Watching someone use an interface can be low-quality information, especially when that interface is already heavily optimized to guide the user down a prescribed path. If that's your sole input, then you're essentially doing a naïve gradient descent, and you're bound to be stuck in a local minimum. Asking users, in addition to watching them struggle, can inform you on what they're actually trying to achieve, and what's their mental model.
  - jrochkind1 8y ago
    I do try to avoid getting them to tell me _solutions_ though. "What's the most annoying part of your job with this software" (with followup questions to understand why and what they were trying to do and _why_ they were trying to do it) is better than "What feature do you want that would most make this software less annoying"?
    - TeMPOraL 8y ago
      This I can agree with, but with a caveat: if you're dealing with professional domain and users who are domain experts, it might be worth it to pick their brains about features too. They might have used other software in the past, and know a design element or functionality that works better.
pbhjpbhj 8y ago
You all them what they do, and they say things like "I open my email, ...": If you watch them you see that what they mean is (dramatised!) "I open my browser, which defaults at Google, then on the Google home page I type 'bing', click on the first search result, then go back because it wasn't Bing search but something else, then read the results and find bing search engine, follow that, login to Bing, then access the app button to choose "Outlook" online, ...". You might not be able to train them not to search for a URL, but IME users will click an "outlook email" icon on desktop or favorites/links bar; of course you need to watch them to see if they do. Aside: browsers could fix this but the browser makers are either the SE owners or in their pockets and don't choose to.
- enraged_camel 8y ago
  >>If you watch them you see that what they mean is (dramatised!) Not necessarily dramatized... I've seen almost identical behavior in some places I've worked. Basically: you can't take anything users say for granted. You need to actually see them work.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    Yes, this is from experience of watching users. I've often had to bite my tongue. Sometimes one learns something clever.
- ummonk 8y ago
  I once saw a professor type "google" into the browser search box (which had google selected as the search engine), click on the first result, and then type in their Google query.

vectorEQ 8y ago

ofcourse you dont ask them how to design. you are hired as the designer. ask them for specifications / limitations / painpoints in the current system etc. etc. and base your design upon their feedback on actual relevant questions. a plumber doesnt ask his customer how to plumb. just which pipes need fixin! doesn't go fix the toilet if the shower is broken :S

chrismeller 8y ago
I think the better analogy would be installing a whole new bathroom (it’s a redesign after all). In that case the plumber could and should ask where the sink is going, even if he was only told to move the toilet. Why? Because maybe the sewage line is over there and about to be covered over with concrete and they’ll have to tear up all of that to move it in two weeks, but the sink hadn’t arrived yet so no one told him that would move either. The point is not that the plumber is asking his customer how he should do his job, but that he can be more valuable if told the whole scope and impact of his job. Similarly you can’t just ask a user “how could this screen work better”, you need to watch them work so that you see that that screen isn’t even the problem - they’re clicking off of it 15 times every call - but you didn’t even know to ask about the other page.
- erikpukinskis 8y ago
  > you can’t just ask a user “how could this screen work better” Why would you ask that anyway? You've already assumed the problem and solution at that point. You ask how it's going, very generally and let the conversation lead you to their pain points. You don't ask about the UI, which they are not an authority on. You ask about their subjective experience, which they are.
  - tabtab 8y ago
    The best approach is to watch them do their work and ask a lot of questions. For example, "Why did you have to leave this screen to go find X?"
    - mattkevan 8y ago
      'Why?' is a very powerful question. A few months ago I heard a talk by the chief product manager at a photo album printing company where he talked about an in-depth series of customer interviews they'd recently conducted. His advice was to keep asking why until you get to the root of why someone did something. However, if the answer you reach 'Because I don't want to die alone', then you've gone too far...
      - tabtab 8y ago
        Or the answer is, "Because the last guy who didn't do X got fired."
      - Mikerad1979 8y ago
        This technique is called a 5-Why in lean manufacturing. Useful tool in digging into a root cause, and helps people think deeply about the causes of issues that are not inherently obvious. Also, 5 is just the "suggested" number. More or less may be needed. If you reach 'Because I don't want to die alone' in 3 whys, probably no need to try for 5...
  - beamatronic 8y ago
    Perhaps you could measure the user instead, as in time taken to complete tasks.

jancsika 8y ago

> I've ever used. Someone that has no clue what the users are doing makes a decision about how best to design an app that they don't even know how to test. You're talking at cross-purposes. To get a sense of how people are interacting with the software you have to watch them interact with the software. The moment you ask them a question about UX you'll begin to get low quality input that you can't trust: * user is expressing an exaggerated desire for some esoteric feature that nobody else would use or discover * user is repeating what they think should be decent design * user is agreeing with a criticism they don't understand because they want to appear knowledgeable All of those and many other problems go away when you just watch somebody use an interface.

TeMPOraL 8y ago
Watching someone use an interface can be low-quality information, especially when that interface is already heavily optimized to guide the user down a prescribed path. If that's your sole input, then you're essentially doing a naïve gradient descent, and you're bound to be stuck in a local minimum. Asking users, in addition to watching them struggle, can inform you on what they're actually trying to achieve, and what's their mental model.
- jrochkind1 8y ago
  I do try to avoid getting them to tell me _solutions_ though. "What's the most annoying part of your job with this software" (with followup questions to understand why and what they were trying to do and _why_ they were trying to do it) is better than "What feature do you want that would most make this software less annoying"?
  - TeMPOraL 8y ago
    This I can agree with, but with a caveat: if you're dealing with professional domain and users who are domain experts, it might be worth it to pick their brains about features too. They might have used other software in the past, and know a design element or functionality that works better.

pbhjpbhj 8y ago

You all them what they do, and they say things like "I open my email, ...": If you watch them you see that what they mean is (dramatised!) "I open my browser, which defaults at Google, then on the Google home page I type 'bing', click on the first search result, then go back because it wasn't Bing search but something else, then read the results and find bing search engine, follow that, login to Bing, then access the app button to choose "Outlook" online, ...". You might not be able to train them not to search for a URL, but IME users will click an "outlook email" icon on desktop or favorites/links bar; of course you need to watch them to see if they do. Aside: browsers could fix this but the browser makers are either the SE owners or in their pockets and don't choose to.

enraged_camel 8y ago
>>If you watch them you see that what they mean is (dramatised!) Not necessarily dramatized... I've seen almost identical behavior in some places I've worked. Basically: you can't take anything users say for granted. You need to actually see them work.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  Yes, this is from experience of watching users. I've often had to bite my tongue. Sometimes one learns something clever.
ummonk 8y ago
I once saw a professor type "google" into the browser search box (which had google selected as the search engine), click on the first result, and then type in their Google query.