8 ms·

The Caviar Con

63 points by kawera 8y ago

bsenftner 8y ago
Looks like 'entrepreneur' is the term for 'opportunist' now.
- vkou 8y ago
  None of these people self-described as entrepreneurs.
eganist 8y ago
ctrl+f "persian" ctrl+f "iran" ...would seem the solution here would be to open up the caviar market with Iranian imports (caveat: I'm Persian), but the luxury goods sanctions snapped back courtesy of the current administration, so the monopoly is back with the Russians. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-08/what-s-next-who-gets-hit-when-the-u-s-resumes-iran-sanctions https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-08/what-s-ne... Shrug.
- Avshalom 8y ago
  I feel like there's some ridiculous pistachio laundering scheme because of the sanctions too.
  - mhuffman 8y ago
    > there's some ridiculous pistachio laundering scheme Believe it or not, this is pushed by the same folks that own Fiji Water and Pom Wonderful.
zeveb 8y ago
> The state and federal government had spent millions of dollars to protect a fish stocking operation that costs Missouri $100,000 a year. Seems like they could have just increased the cost of fishing licenses (or some similar fund-raiser) and increased the stocking effort. Or heck, just farmed the caviar and sold it to aficionados …
- gwern 8y ago
  They obviously did not do it just to save the cost of restocking a few paddlefish. As the article says repeatedly, they thought they were infiltrating an international mafia of endangered species poaching, money laundering, smuggling, international crime and transnational mafia likely with links to terrorism or intelligence agencies, which might be involved in anything from drugs to ivory smuggling.
  - lightbyte 8y ago
    Yeah and it turned out that they were delusional and people just wanted caviar to eat it >Most of the men were buying female paddlefish, processing knockoff caviar and just … eating it. Illegal, yes. But the plot of a Russian mafia thriller? Hardly. >If the government did not realize its miscalculation, at least some officers must have on March 13, 2013, at 7 a.m. Central time, when 125 state and federal agents descended on poachers across four time zones to make arrests. >During an interrogation, one poacher was confused. The caviar was for his family to give guests when they came over. >“Why would I want to sell it?” he asked. >“To make money,” an agent suggested. >“Heck, no!” >Of the 112 defendants tagged with state or federal violations, investigators observed only Petr Babenko, the owner of a gourmet store in Vineland, New Jersey, intending to sell the stuff. He was prosecuted, convicted, and given probation. The government seized his Mercedes van. >To Hitchings, it doesn’t matter. Other men were undoubtedly selling, he said
    - stefs 8y ago
      that's hindsight, though. enforcing the law is, i guess, rarely cost effective in the short run.
gumby 8y ago
I've never understood the point of caviar (my ex loved it so I've eaten a lot over the decades). It always seemed like a classic Vleben/"famine cuisine turned posh", like lobster going from "inedible" to haut cuisine due to scarcity. In fact this transition is right in the article: "...paddlefish caviar — a byproduct that for years local fishermen tossed back with fish guts — ..."
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  > I've never understood the point of caviar What's the point of any luxury item? People enjoy it. If you don't, don't worry, you can probably find something else to enjoy instead. > ...paddlefish caviar — a byproduct that for years local fishermen tossed back with fish guts Lots of luxury items were once byproducts - it's not unusual and it doesn't diminish the enjoyment people get out of them now. Lobster (as you said), oysters, alcohol, are all examples.
- lightbyte 8y ago
  >like lobster going from "inedible" to haut cuisine due to scarcity. Lobster didn't go from inedible to highly desirable because of scarcity. It's because we learned that when you kill the lobster and let it sit around for days it very quickly decomposes and releases ammonia, which tends to taste like cat piss. If you cook it immediately after killing it it actually tastes good.
  - RcouF1uZ4gsC 8y ago
    > If you cook it immediately after killing it it actually tastes good. I believe we actually cook it before killing it (boil alive).
    - lightbyte 8y ago
      Some people do, I believe generally the most acceptable (and humane) method is to spike the brain of the lobster before boiling it.
    - mynameisvlad 8y ago
meddlepal 8y ago
> Entrepreneurs went looking for alternatives among Caspian sturgeon’s distant North American cousins: white sturgeon, the shovelnose sturgeon of the Mississippi River, the American paddlefish. It’s a mediocre substitute. I like caviar... I have eaten quite a bit of caviar including Russian Sevruga and Beluga and I think actually prefer American Hackleback to all of them. The fact it is massively cheaper than Russian caviar is just an additional plus.
- mc32 8y ago
  There is also Sturgeon farming in the Sacramento area[1]. NOt sure about the quality, but looks like a Belgian multinational is now the owner. [1]http://www.sactownmag.com/December-January-2010/The-Incredible-Edible-Eggs/?cparticle=2&siarticle=1 http://www.sactownmag.com/December-January-2010/The-Incredib...
forkLding 8y ago
Aside from Persian Caviar, you could consider Chinese Caviar, one Chinese Caviar company, Kaluga Queen, already supplies 30% of the world, there are documentaries of them on Youtube. They supply 21 of the 26 3 star Michellin restaurants in Paris. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaluga_Queen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaluga_Queen
throwaway5752 8y ago
Caviar might be the most overrated food item (besides foie gras) that exists. It is enjoyable, but nowhere in proportion to the cost. It's a status symbol. It's a damn shame we are pushing species into extinction for irrational reasons (overrated fish eggs, rhino horn ED "cures", etc)
- gammateam 8y ago
  Its not overrated, it is just scarce. Yes, it is a status symbol, solely because of its high price and because it is scarce. These aren't controversial things, you already figured it out, but somehow have cognitive dissonance over this.
  - perfmode 8y ago
    It is scarce. Because it is scarce, it is a status symbol. Because it is a status symbol only because it is scarce, it is overrated. Therefore it is overrated.
    - gammateam 8y ago
      > Because it is a status symbol only because it is scarce, it is overrated. Ah thats where we are going to disagree. That logic path isn't a leap I would make. You are undervaluing the utility of scarcity.
      - mpweiher 8y ago
        And the utility of status symbols. Now one can reasonably disagree over whether they should be useful. But the case that they actually are not useful is a difficult one.
        gammateam 8y ago
        Agreed, a single market participant can be constricting the supply intentionally or because they have a utility unknown/inaccessible to the rest of the market
sct202 8y ago
It's sad that these fish take 7+ years to mature and are harvested just for their eggs while their bodies are left to rot.
- habeebtc 8y ago
  They are marvelous beasts. The bright side is that they are hard to catch outside of spawning grounds, and not commonly targeted by fishermen, not commonly caught accidentally, and not commonly eaten even if so. The bad news is is that their chief competitor for food is Asian Carp. From my reading this is a much larger issue than Russian poachers. (If you were wondering, I was looking into Asian carp snagging and got to reading up on Paddlefish since they inhabit the same waters near me)

The Caviar Con

63 points by kawera 8y ago

bsenftner 8y ago

Looks like 'entrepreneur' is the term for 'opportunist' now.

vkou 8y ago
None of these people self-described as entrepreneurs.

eganist 8y ago

ctrl+f "persian" ctrl+f "iran" ...would seem the solution here would be to open up the caviar market with Iranian imports (caveat: I'm Persian), but the luxury goods sanctions snapped back courtesy of the current administration, so the monopoly is back with the Russians. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-08/what-s-next-who-gets-hit-when-the-u-s-resumes-iran-sanctions https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-08/what-s-ne... Shrug.

Avshalom 8y ago
I feel like there's some ridiculous pistachio laundering scheme because of the sanctions too.
- mhuffman 8y ago
  > there's some ridiculous pistachio laundering scheme Believe it or not, this is pushed by the same folks that own Fiji Water and Pom Wonderful.

zeveb 8y ago

> The state and federal government had spent millions of dollars to protect a fish stocking operation that costs Missouri $100,000 a year. Seems like they could have just increased the cost of fishing licenses (or some similar fund-raiser) and increased the stocking effort. Or heck, just farmed the caviar and sold it to aficionados …

gwern 8y ago
They obviously did not do it just to save the cost of restocking a few paddlefish. As the article says repeatedly, they thought they were infiltrating an international mafia of endangered species poaching, money laundering, smuggling, international crime and transnational mafia likely with links to terrorism or intelligence agencies, which might be involved in anything from drugs to ivory smuggling.
- lightbyte 8y ago
  Yeah and it turned out that they were delusional and people just wanted caviar to eat it >Most of the men were buying female paddlefish, processing knockoff caviar and just … eating it. Illegal, yes. But the plot of a Russian mafia thriller? Hardly. >If the government did not realize its miscalculation, at least some officers must have on March 13, 2013, at 7 a.m. Central time, when 125 state and federal agents descended on poachers across four time zones to make arrests. >During an interrogation, one poacher was confused. The caviar was for his family to give guests when they came over. >“Why would I want to sell it?” he asked. >“To make money,” an agent suggested. >“Heck, no!” >Of the 112 defendants tagged with state or federal violations, investigators observed only Petr Babenko, the owner of a gourmet store in Vineland, New Jersey, intending to sell the stuff. He was prosecuted, convicted, and given probation. The government seized his Mercedes van. >To Hitchings, it doesn’t matter. Other men were undoubtedly selling, he said
  - stefs 8y ago
    that's hindsight, though. enforcing the law is, i guess, rarely cost effective in the short run.

gumby 8y ago

I've never understood the point of caviar (my ex loved it so I've eaten a lot over the decades). It always seemed like a classic Vleben/"famine cuisine turned posh", like lobster going from "inedible" to haut cuisine due to scarcity. In fact this transition is right in the article: "...paddlefish caviar — a byproduct that for years local fishermen tossed back with fish guts — ..."

chrisseaton 8y ago
> I've never understood the point of caviar What's the point of any luxury item? People enjoy it. If you don't, don't worry, you can probably find something else to enjoy instead. > ...paddlefish caviar — a byproduct that for years local fishermen tossed back with fish guts Lots of luxury items were once byproducts - it's not unusual and it doesn't diminish the enjoyment people get out of them now. Lobster (as you said), oysters, alcohol, are all examples.
lightbyte 8y ago
>like lobster going from "inedible" to haut cuisine due to scarcity. Lobster didn't go from inedible to highly desirable because of scarcity. It's because we learned that when you kill the lobster and let it sit around for days it very quickly decomposes and releases ammonia, which tends to taste like cat piss. If you cook it immediately after killing it it actually tastes good.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 8y ago
  > If you cook it immediately after killing it it actually tastes good. I believe we actually cook it before killing it (boil alive).
  - lightbyte 8y ago
    Some people do, I believe generally the most acceptable (and humane) method is to spike the brain of the lobster before boiling it.
  - mynameisvlad 8y ago

meddlepal 8y ago

> Entrepreneurs went looking for alternatives among Caspian sturgeon’s distant North American cousins: white sturgeon, the shovelnose sturgeon of the Mississippi River, the American paddlefish. It’s a mediocre substitute. I like caviar... I have eaten quite a bit of caviar including Russian Sevruga and Beluga and I think actually prefer American Hackleback to all of them. The fact it is massively cheaper than Russian caviar is just an additional plus.

mc32 8y ago
There is also Sturgeon farming in the Sacramento area[1]. NOt sure about the quality, but looks like a Belgian multinational is now the owner. [1]http://www.sactownmag.com/December-January-2010/The-Incredible-Edible-Eggs/?cparticle=2&siarticle=1 http://www.sactownmag.com/December-January-2010/The-Incredib...

forkLding 8y ago

Aside from Persian Caviar, you could consider Chinese Caviar, one Chinese Caviar company, Kaluga Queen, already supplies 30% of the world, there are documentaries of them on Youtube. They supply 21 of the 26 3 star Michellin restaurants in Paris. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaluga_Queen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaluga_Queen

throwaway5752 8y ago

Caviar might be the most overrated food item (besides foie gras) that exists. It is enjoyable, but nowhere in proportion to the cost. It's a status symbol. It's a damn shame we are pushing species into extinction for irrational reasons (overrated fish eggs, rhino horn ED "cures", etc)

gammateam 8y ago
Its not overrated, it is just scarce. Yes, it is a status symbol, solely because of its high price and because it is scarce. These aren't controversial things, you already figured it out, but somehow have cognitive dissonance over this.
- perfmode 8y ago
  It is scarce. Because it is scarce, it is a status symbol. Because it is a status symbol only because it is scarce, it is overrated. Therefore it is overrated.
  - gammateam 8y ago
    > Because it is a status symbol only because it is scarce, it is overrated. Ah thats where we are going to disagree. That logic path isn't a leap I would make. You are undervaluing the utility of scarcity.
    - mpweiher 8y ago
      And the utility of status symbols. Now one can reasonably disagree over whether they should be useful. But the case that they actually are not useful is a difficult one.
      - gammateam 8y ago
        Agreed, a single market participant can be constricting the supply intentionally or because they have a utility unknown/inaccessible to the rest of the market

sct202 8y ago

It's sad that these fish take 7+ years to mature and are harvested just for their eggs while their bodies are left to rot.

habeebtc 8y ago
They are marvelous beasts. The bright side is that they are hard to catch outside of spawning grounds, and not commonly targeted by fishermen, not commonly caught accidentally, and not commonly eaten even if so. The bad news is is that their chief competitor for food is Asian Carp. From my reading this is a much larger issue than Russian poachers. (If you were wondering, I was looking into Asian carp snagging and got to reading up on Paddlefish since they inhabit the same waters near me)