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I'm conflicted about this. I think forced arbitration is a terrible predatory practice. But I also think there are lots of frivolous class action lawsuits. All

I'm conflicted about this. I think forced arbitration is a terrible predatory practice. But I also think there are lots of frivolous class action lawsuits. All the claims cited here were from a single class action lawsuit that was thrown out. I'm all for Uber drivers making more money but they filed a class action lawsuit asking for a different compensation structure than what was offered. They knew the deal when they signed up and it seems like a sketchy attorney took on their case for a big pay day and when that was thrown out they're now taking this next step. If I sign an agreement with an employer about my compensation, I don't have a realistic expectation that I'd be able to sue them when they continue to do what they told me they'd do and I'm no longer happy with it (my recourse is to walk away and work somewhere that better matches what I'm looking for). Frivolous lawsuits drive up the cost for customers almost everywhere. It's a big reason why medical costs are so high. People see a big organization that has some cash and they think they can file a suit as a way to quick riches.

mikeash 8y ago
According to this article, malpractice costs (including the cost of defensive medicine done due to the fear of lawsuits) accounts for 2.4% of health care spending: https://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2010/09/07/the-true-cost-of-medical-malpractice-it-may-surprise-you/#78683f6a2ff5 https://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2010/09/07/the-true-c... That’s a decent amount of money but I wouldn’t call it a big reason. One of the problems with bringing health care costs down is that there aren’t any big reasons for it, just lots and lots of little ones.
- Eliezer 8y ago
  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3048809/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3048809/ That was a shockingly low figure relative to what I’ve heard from friends in medicine. Looking up the original paper showed that the estimators used for that figure were very sketchy, and the authors of the paper did not claim otherwise. They were simply grasping for any estimator they could.
  - Retric 8y ago
    People in Medicine overestimate these costs as they represent a much smaller fraction of total Medicine costs than they assume. EX: Their are 1.1 million doctors assuming 250k average salary it adds up around 275 billion ish which seems huge, except that’s out of 2.2 trillion in US heathcare spending. So, that’s only adds up to around 10 percent of total spending. And malpractice insurance is well below what a doctor makes on average. Pills, buildings, janitors, machines, etc all add up.
    - woolvalley 8y ago
      Well if your a doctor, %2/%10 is %20 of revenue for the doctor, which feels large. AFAIK it's doctors or their hospital that pays for malpractice insurance, so it come out of their pocket directly. They probably have stories of malpractice insurance not working that well, creating ruin for the doctors because of a relatively uncommon event, much like patients using the medical system.
- amw 8y ago
  You could argue that the "one big reason" is "healthcare companies exist to make a profit, not a healthier society".
  - orangecat 8y ago
    You could argue that the "one big reason" is "healthcare companies exist to make a profit, not a healthier society". The same is true for food companies, software companies, and furniture companies, yet we don't see rapidly rising costs in those areas.
- pseingatl 8y ago
  Price health insurance coverage with and without an exclusion for the United States. Including the US will cost anywhere from3 to 5x more for the same coverage.
crankylinuxuser 8y ago
> Frivolous lawsuits drive up the cost for customers almost everywhere. It's a big reason why medical costs are so high. People see a big organization that has some cash and they think they can file a suit as a way to quick riches. I've seen that bandied around for as long as I've lived. But considering that in the 90's there was a significant push to limit damages to a multitude of "people" (doctors and med companies), I'm going to need some citations for this claim. My counterclaim why medicine is so damned expensive in this country, is people are willing to pay for it. Not like they have any other good choices. (Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/11/26/why-prescription-drug-prices-have-skyrocketed/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.f6593e7dbf2f https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/11/26/why-prescr... --- because they can)
georgeecollins 8y ago
>> Frivolous lawsuits drive up the cost for customers almost everywhere. It's a big reason why medical costs are so high. This is asserted with confidence but with zero facts presented. A poster on this thread cites some numbers as putting the cost of malpractice insurance at 2.4% of the total cost of health care spending. For a comparison, I spend a lot more on car insurance as percent of the cost of driving a car. The reason why so many are sure that litigation is making their life expensive is ideological. Maybe it is true, and certainly in some cases litigation is very expensive. But think about where you hear about it. A random guy on the street is very worrying about ambulance chasing lawyers driving up costs of health care. But Apple suing Samsung or Qualcomm for billions of dollars is of no concern.
- LorenPechtel 8y ago
  It's not just the malpractice premiums, but all the defensive medicine the doctors do to address low-probability scenarios where the cost (and often the risk) of the testing isn't worth it.
  - georgeecollins 8y ago
    That's another lovely anecdote. Are you sure that: - Unneeded testing isn't also pushed by patients? - Hospitals and administrators also push testing as a profit center? I don't know.
    - LorenPechtel 8y ago
      Well, the one time I know I ran into it there was no pushing from me. I knew long-dormant malaria had decided to cease being dormant (the cyclic nature of the symptoms is a dead giveaway to anyone who has encountered it) the doc agreed with my assessment although he felt my symptoms were mild (which wasn't a surprise to me, my initial infection had been mild, also.) He looked up the right drugs (when and where you were infected say what drugs to use) and wrote the script--but also ordered a lab test to confirm. The drugs stopped my symptoms in their tracks, a clear confirmation they were right and that before the lab could have replied even if they had done their job correctly. They had nobody trained to do it, though, and substituted a basically useless test instead. A week later the doc gets the results and that was the only time I ever heard him curse (this was also my wife's employer, I saw a lot more of him than a patient would.) If he had a microscope he could have done the proper test in 10 minutes (He worked with Doctors Without Borders and thus had more clinical experience with malaria than a specialist would.) $200 down the drain because he felt the need to CYA. It should have been try the drugs first and if they don't work then you investigate.

mikeash 8y ago

According to this article, malpractice costs (including the cost of defensive medicine done due to the fear of lawsuits) accounts for 2.4% of health care spending: https://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2010/09/07/the-true-cost-of-medical-malpractice-it-may-surprise-you/#78683f6a2ff5 https://www.forbes.com/sites/rickungar/2010/09/07/the-true-c... That’s a decent amount of money but I wouldn’t call it a big reason. One of the problems with bringing health care costs down is that there aren’t any big reasons for it, just lots and lots of little ones.

Eliezer 8y ago
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3048809/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3048809/ That was a shockingly low figure relative to what I’ve heard from friends in medicine. Looking up the original paper showed that the estimators used for that figure were very sketchy, and the authors of the paper did not claim otherwise. They were simply grasping for any estimator they could.
- Retric 8y ago
  People in Medicine overestimate these costs as they represent a much smaller fraction of total Medicine costs than they assume. EX: Their are 1.1 million doctors assuming 250k average salary it adds up around 275 billion ish which seems huge, except that’s out of 2.2 trillion in US heathcare spending. So, that’s only adds up to around 10 percent of total spending. And malpractice insurance is well below what a doctor makes on average. Pills, buildings, janitors, machines, etc all add up.
  - woolvalley 8y ago
    Well if your a doctor, %2/%10 is %20 of revenue for the doctor, which feels large. AFAIK it's doctors or their hospital that pays for malpractice insurance, so it come out of their pocket directly. They probably have stories of malpractice insurance not working that well, creating ruin for the doctors because of a relatively uncommon event, much like patients using the medical system.
amw 8y ago
You could argue that the "one big reason" is "healthcare companies exist to make a profit, not a healthier society".
- orangecat 8y ago
  You could argue that the "one big reason" is "healthcare companies exist to make a profit, not a healthier society". The same is true for food companies, software companies, and furniture companies, yet we don't see rapidly rising costs in those areas.
pseingatl 8y ago
Price health insurance coverage with and without an exclusion for the United States. Including the US will cost anywhere from3 to 5x more for the same coverage.

crankylinuxuser 8y ago

> Frivolous lawsuits drive up the cost for customers almost everywhere. It's a big reason why medical costs are so high. People see a big organization that has some cash and they think they can file a suit as a way to quick riches. I've seen that bandied around for as long as I've lived. But considering that in the 90's there was a significant push to limit damages to a multitude of "people" (doctors and med companies), I'm going to need some citations for this claim. My counterclaim why medicine is so damned expensive in this country, is people are willing to pay for it. Not like they have any other good choices. (Source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/11/26/why-prescription-drug-prices-have-skyrocketed/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.f6593e7dbf2f https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2018/11/26/why-prescr... --- because they can)

georgeecollins 8y ago

>> Frivolous lawsuits drive up the cost for customers almost everywhere. It's a big reason why medical costs are so high. This is asserted with confidence but with zero facts presented. A poster on this thread cites some numbers as putting the cost of malpractice insurance at 2.4% of the total cost of health care spending. For a comparison, I spend a lot more on car insurance as percent of the cost of driving a car. The reason why so many are sure that litigation is making their life expensive is ideological. Maybe it is true, and certainly in some cases litigation is very expensive. But think about where you hear about it. A random guy on the street is very worrying about ambulance chasing lawyers driving up costs of health care. But Apple suing Samsung or Qualcomm for billions of dollars is of no concern.

LorenPechtel 8y ago
It's not just the malpractice premiums, but all the defensive medicine the doctors do to address low-probability scenarios where the cost (and often the risk) of the testing isn't worth it.
- georgeecollins 8y ago
  That's another lovely anecdote. Are you sure that: - Unneeded testing isn't also pushed by patients? - Hospitals and administrators also push testing as a profit center? I don't know.
  - LorenPechtel 8y ago
    Well, the one time I know I ran into it there was no pushing from me. I knew long-dormant malaria had decided to cease being dormant (the cyclic nature of the symptoms is a dead giveaway to anyone who has encountered it) the doc agreed with my assessment although he felt my symptoms were mild (which wasn't a surprise to me, my initial infection had been mild, also.) He looked up the right drugs (when and where you were infected say what drugs to use) and wrote the script--but also ordered a lab test to confirm. The drugs stopped my symptoms in their tracks, a clear confirmation they were right and that before the lab could have replied even if they had done their job correctly. They had nobody trained to do it, though, and substituted a basically useless test instead. A week later the doc gets the results and that was the only time I ever heard him curse (this was also my wife's employer, I saw a lot more of him than a patient would.) If he had a microscope he could have done the proper test in 10 minutes (He worked with Doctors Without Borders and thus had more clinical experience with malaria than a specialist would.) $200 down the drain because he felt the need to CYA. It should have been try the drugs first and if they don't work then you investigate.