4 ms·

That's an interesting position. It then follows that you believe we should consider the Crimean Peninsula as properly part of Russia?

dingaling 8y ago
I don't see how that follows. Taiwan has been self-governing for 70 years. If Kosovo could be classified as a nation after a few weeks of independence it's only hypocrisy to deny the same to Taiwan.
- goblin89 8y ago
  Thought experiment: imagine that during the communist revolution in old Russia, the non-communist elites fled to Kosovo. Subsequently, USSR claims that Kosovo is part of it, while Kosovo’s claim is, fundamentally, to the entire territory of Russia. That, from my understanding, has been the historic position of Taiwan vs. China, and why this conflict, while not causing a lot of violence now, could be less straightforward to resolve than a claim of an ethnicity to a geographic area. In the above alternative reality, could Kosovo be recognized as a separate entity counter to USSR’s desires? Maybe but the question doesn’t make much sense in the first place, since that (being a separate territory) would be almost the opposite of what Kosovo wanted.
- akvadrako 8y ago
  So you're saying if a region declares independence and gets foreign allies to provide effective military protection for X weeks/years, then the original country has lost any right to that land? You might like the idea, but it's not commonly held. For one thing it encourages armed invasions against weaker nations.
  - pjc50 8y ago
    > So you're saying if a region declares independence and gets foreign allies to provide effective military protection for X weeks/years, then the original country has lost any right to that land? This is how the United States claims to exist, by the way.
    - cjhopman 8y ago
      I think the major difference is that on September 3, 1783 Great Britain itself recognized the independence of the United States. I'm not sure that any of Crimea, Kosovo, or Taiwan share that recognition of their independence from who they are claiming to be independent from (the ROC, in fact, doesn't even claim to be independent, they claim that the PRC itself holds no claim over mainland China and that it is rightfully the territory of the ROC).
colechristensen 8y ago
I think that if you believed in self-determination of people inside Crimea and put it to a vote, there is a decent chance the people would have chosen to be annexed making it a justified act (but this is not what happened). This is complicated by extensive propaganda and other manipulation on all sides, and thoughts about the rights of Ukraine as a whole. What is clear is that Crimea and Ukraine are being used as pawns in a global geopolitical conflict that has little to do with or concern for the people actually there. A significant portion of it is about power and popularity of leaders and parties inside their own state using the international conflict to bolster support. It is hard to not have a dim view of international politics like this. Taiwan is completely different situation. It simply does not belong to China. The rest of the world allows China to pretend differently but it is just words.
- cjhopman 8y ago
  Do you believe that China should be a country ruled by its current government? Or should the ROC control it? If the ROC shouldn't control it, then why should they control Taiwan? Simply because the invaded it 70 years ago and seized control? If China seizes control back today, will you in 50 years argue that the remaining Taiwanese separatists should just get with the times and accept Chinese control of Taiwan?
  - colechristensen 8y ago
    I believe that China, Taiwan, and everywhere really should be ruled by their respective peoples. At least Taiwan seems to be doing a pretty good job of self-rule and nobody has a legitimate claim over that. Any gripes about 70 years ago should be pretty muted because most of the people involved aren't alive any longer.
    - cjhopman 8y ago
      Who is a place's "respective peoples"? How do you feel about Native Americans and their claims to various land in the USA and the policies around reservations? How about native Hawaiian's various issues? Should Mark Zuckerberg be free to erect walls of whatever size he wants around his land and to seize the ancestral land of various native hawaiian's through the courts? How do you feel about the sovereign citizen movement? How do you feel about the state of Israel? I think that your position trivializes the complexities of these situations.

dingaling 8y ago

I don't see how that follows. Taiwan has been self-governing for 70 years. If Kosovo could be classified as a nation after a few weeks of independence it's only hypocrisy to deny the same to Taiwan.

goblin89 8y ago
Thought experiment: imagine that during the communist revolution in old Russia, the non-communist elites fled to Kosovo. Subsequently, USSR claims that Kosovo is part of it, while Kosovo’s claim is, fundamentally, to the entire territory of Russia. That, from my understanding, has been the historic position of Taiwan vs. China, and why this conflict, while not causing a lot of violence now, could be less straightforward to resolve than a claim of an ethnicity to a geographic area. In the above alternative reality, could Kosovo be recognized as a separate entity counter to USSR’s desires? Maybe but the question doesn’t make much sense in the first place, since that (being a separate territory) would be almost the opposite of what Kosovo wanted.
akvadrako 8y ago
So you're saying if a region declares independence and gets foreign allies to provide effective military protection for X weeks/years, then the original country has lost any right to that land? You might like the idea, but it's not commonly held. For one thing it encourages armed invasions against weaker nations.
- pjc50 8y ago
  > So you're saying if a region declares independence and gets foreign allies to provide effective military protection for X weeks/years, then the original country has lost any right to that land? This is how the United States claims to exist, by the way.
  - cjhopman 8y ago
    I think the major difference is that on September 3, 1783 Great Britain itself recognized the independence of the United States. I'm not sure that any of Crimea, Kosovo, or Taiwan share that recognition of their independence from who they are claiming to be independent from (the ROC, in fact, doesn't even claim to be independent, they claim that the PRC itself holds no claim over mainland China and that it is rightfully the territory of the ROC).

colechristensen 8y ago

I think that if you believed in self-determination of people inside Crimea and put it to a vote, there is a decent chance the people would have chosen to be annexed making it a justified act (but this is not what happened). This is complicated by extensive propaganda and other manipulation on all sides, and thoughts about the rights of Ukraine as a whole. What is clear is that Crimea and Ukraine are being used as pawns in a global geopolitical conflict that has little to do with or concern for the people actually there. A significant portion of it is about power and popularity of leaders and parties inside their own state using the international conflict to bolster support. It is hard to not have a dim view of international politics like this. Taiwan is completely different situation. It simply does not belong to China. The rest of the world allows China to pretend differently but it is just words.

cjhopman 8y ago
Do you believe that China should be a country ruled by its current government? Or should the ROC control it? If the ROC shouldn't control it, then why should they control Taiwan? Simply because the invaded it 70 years ago and seized control? If China seizes control back today, will you in 50 years argue that the remaining Taiwanese separatists should just get with the times and accept Chinese control of Taiwan?
- colechristensen 8y ago
  I believe that China, Taiwan, and everywhere really should be ruled by their respective peoples. At least Taiwan seems to be doing a pretty good job of self-rule and nobody has a legitimate claim over that. Any gripes about 70 years ago should be pretty muted because most of the people involved aren't alive any longer.
  - cjhopman 8y ago
    Who is a place's "respective peoples"? How do you feel about Native Americans and their claims to various land in the USA and the policies around reservations? How about native Hawaiian's various issues? Should Mark Zuckerberg be free to erect walls of whatever size he wants around his land and to seize the ancestral land of various native hawaiian's through the courts? How do you feel about the sovereign citizen movement? How do you feel about the state of Israel? I think that your position trivializes the complexities of these situations.