9 ms·

Make them bankruptable. Make the risk real, causing banks to only give loans if the kid is gonna pay it off fairly regularly. Fewer kids going to college will

Make them bankruptable. Make the risk real, causing banks to only give loans if the kid is gonna pay it off fairly regularly. Fewer kids going to college will decrease demand, and cause the price to go down, as well. Tech schools have far better outcomes, and will be chosen more often.

tomatotomato37 8y ago
What happens when someone blames the banking system for oppressing the poor/minorities/whatever by denying them a loan and thus not providing opportunities for advancement, while leaving out the fact that they applied for a degree in 17th century Mongolian literature?
- wolfgke 8y ago
  > What happens when someone blames the banking system for oppressing the poor/minorities/whatever by denying them a loan and thus not providing opportunities for advancement, while leaving out the fact that they applied for a degree in 17th century Mongolian literature? If someone believes that such a person will get a decent salary after graduating, they should put their money where their mouth is.
  - pnw_hazor 8y ago
    I think the schools should play this role. They are the ones with the best information.
- danschumann 8y ago
  Would they be less oppressed than having $xx,000 in debt, which they cannot pay off, and cannot get rid of? By the way, they were admitted access to a school which was beyond their ability, and they didn't even get a degree to go with this debt. They were set up for failure in many ways. The loan assumed they'd have a job. The school assumed they needed a leg up, and would adapt to the work load. Is this oppression? Or is this death by assistance? Hansel and Gretel were fattened up before they were eaten, as well. Is this toxic assistance, where people drown in the programs meant for their benefit?
redorb 8y ago
These seems like the reasonable free-market approach.
- bduerst 8y ago
  Except you're back at the colonial-era nepotism model because you now have to put up assets to take a student loan, and only wealthy families can afford it.
  - iguy 8y ago
    Make non-dischargeable loans more like an investment for the bank, in which they get back something tied to your income, when you earn it. And let them offer what they will according to school/major/SAT score/etc. Then indeed expensive useless degrees will (like a gap-year in first-class hotels) be available only to the rich. But useful job training will not be.
  - danschumann 8y ago
    Slavery and debt have this in common: You work and you don't get products for your labor. In slavery, you don't get money. In debt, you get money which goes away before you can spend it. I think nepotism is less bad than slavery. I had debt with no degree, nothing to show for it. I had to work and not get to keep the money. I felt like a slave. I don't want other people to be in debt slavery. Nepotism only would affect me via envy. Debt affected me daily, mentally, harshly. There were days when I could think of nothing else, miserable at my situation. Nepotism is nothing compared to being in debt slavery. Who cares what other people are doing. Am I free?
    - bduerst 8y ago
      That's true, but we're not limited to dichotomies of nepotism or slavery. I would put the current system (student loans) at indentured servitude, but that model still achieves the goal of created an educated, skilled public. Nepotism is a step backwards from this goal. It is only a solution to a symptom of the current means, without achieving the same ends.
  - 8y ago
corpMaverick 8y ago
IMHO, They should be bankruptable after some amount. (e.g. after 40k)
- iguy 8y ago
  But some very useful degrees are expensive, like medical school. I'd make it explicitly tied to what you earn (in the contract not the bankruptcy court).
- danschumann 8y ago
  It's most noticeable when you see someone who failed out of med school and has $300k debt with $50k income.. but in all situations it should be bankruptable.
rb808 8y ago
Surely every student with loans would be bankrupt on graduation so no one would ever pay?
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > Surely every student with loans would be bankrupt on graduation so no one would ever pay? Student loans are a funny kind of loan. They're unsecured debt given to students with--on average--no assets or income. We certainly went extreme with the "no discharge under any circumstances" threshold. There is no reason to over-correct to the other extreme of "everything is dischargeable at any time." A new chapter of bankruptcy would probably be needed to effectively deal with student debt defaults.
  - astura 8y ago
    How do you propose this working given the fact every student (who isn't from a well off family or didn't get lots of scholarships) comes out of college with near zero assets and lots of debt. Have a X number of year waiting period?
    - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
      > How do you propose this working given the fact every student (who isn't from a well off family or didn't get lots of scholarships) comes out of college with near zero assets and lots of debt Bankruptcy is a court-mediated process. > Have a X number of year waiting period? This would be a necessary first piece. One needs a few years of income data to establish how much someone can pay. After that, I'd argue for % of discretionary income payments (up to a dollar cap) for N years, after which the unpaid balance (both principal and interest) are written off.
gammateam 8y ago
Hm seems like this should be a reality in conjunction with two or three more programs so that this populace still becomes educated
- freedomben 8y ago
  This is probably a minority opinion, but having acquired two bachelor degrees (one in Computer Science, the other in Business) and a Masters in Cybersecurity, I think it's a fallacy to assume that people coming out of college are educated. Some are, but many are not (yet they still get that piece of paper). I have now spent the last 10 years studying all kinds of things that I'm interested in, such as philosophy and physics, history, theology (both from a position of belief and disbelief as I've transitioned), and many more. I am now utterly convinced that if our goal is "that this populace still becomes educated" the correct answer is to make information more accessible, lower cost, and more entertaining. I still think there's a place for a traditional college degree, but that place is generally not as training for a career IMHO.
  - gammateam 8y ago
    I agree, but until that framework exists I see colleges at least expose people to concepts students that have to wrap their head around even if those people are merely good at getting high scores. I’m really glad that a lot of movies and literature doesnt dumb down a lot of the science tropes as much as it used to.
  - hurryskurry 8y ago
    The traditional college degree should be geared towards academia imo. You don't need a college degree for most jobs really. You can learn almost anything on the job. And as someone also with two bachelors pursuing a PhD I agree that most people are not that educated. In my opinion more focus should be put on early childhood education and public school. I felt like I learned nothing in hs, and now feel I could easily have gotten a whole undergrad during that time, had I known better how to teach myself

tomatotomato37 8y ago

What happens when someone blames the banking system for oppressing the poor/minorities/whatever by denying them a loan and thus not providing opportunities for advancement, while leaving out the fact that they applied for a degree in 17th century Mongolian literature?

wolfgke 8y ago
> What happens when someone blames the banking system for oppressing the poor/minorities/whatever by denying them a loan and thus not providing opportunities for advancement, while leaving out the fact that they applied for a degree in 17th century Mongolian literature? If someone believes that such a person will get a decent salary after graduating, they should put their money where their mouth is.
- pnw_hazor 8y ago
  I think the schools should play this role. They are the ones with the best information.
danschumann 8y ago
Would they be less oppressed than having $xx,000 in debt, which they cannot pay off, and cannot get rid of? By the way, they were admitted access to a school which was beyond their ability, and they didn't even get a degree to go with this debt. They were set up for failure in many ways. The loan assumed they'd have a job. The school assumed they needed a leg up, and would adapt to the work load. Is this oppression? Or is this death by assistance? Hansel and Gretel were fattened up before they were eaten, as well. Is this toxic assistance, where people drown in the programs meant for their benefit?

redorb 8y ago

These seems like the reasonable free-market approach.

bduerst 8y ago
Except you're back at the colonial-era nepotism model because you now have to put up assets to take a student loan, and only wealthy families can afford it.
- iguy 8y ago
  Make non-dischargeable loans more like an investment for the bank, in which they get back something tied to your income, when you earn it. And let them offer what they will according to school/major/SAT score/etc. Then indeed expensive useless degrees will (like a gap-year in first-class hotels) be available only to the rich. But useful job training will not be.
- danschumann 8y ago
  Slavery and debt have this in common: You work and you don't get products for your labor. In slavery, you don't get money. In debt, you get money which goes away before you can spend it. I think nepotism is less bad than slavery. I had debt with no degree, nothing to show for it. I had to work and not get to keep the money. I felt like a slave. I don't want other people to be in debt slavery. Nepotism only would affect me via envy. Debt affected me daily, mentally, harshly. There were days when I could think of nothing else, miserable at my situation. Nepotism is nothing compared to being in debt slavery. Who cares what other people are doing. Am I free?
  - bduerst 8y ago
    That's true, but we're not limited to dichotomies of nepotism or slavery. I would put the current system (student loans) at indentured servitude, but that model still achieves the goal of created an educated, skilled public. Nepotism is a step backwards from this goal. It is only a solution to a symptom of the current means, without achieving the same ends.
- 8y ago

corpMaverick 8y ago

IMHO, They should be bankruptable after some amount. (e.g. after 40k)

iguy 8y ago
But some very useful degrees are expensive, like medical school. I'd make it explicitly tied to what you earn (in the contract not the bankruptcy court).
danschumann 8y ago
It's most noticeable when you see someone who failed out of med school and has $300k debt with $50k income.. but in all situations it should be bankruptable.

rb808 8y ago

Surely every student with loans would be bankrupt on graduation so no one would ever pay?

JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> Surely every student with loans would be bankrupt on graduation so no one would ever pay? Student loans are a funny kind of loan. They're unsecured debt given to students with--on average--no assets or income. We certainly went extreme with the "no discharge under any circumstances" threshold. There is no reason to over-correct to the other extreme of "everything is dischargeable at any time." A new chapter of bankruptcy would probably be needed to effectively deal with student debt defaults.
- astura 8y ago
  How do you propose this working given the fact every student (who isn't from a well off family or didn't get lots of scholarships) comes out of college with near zero assets and lots of debt. Have a X number of year waiting period?
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > How do you propose this working given the fact every student (who isn't from a well off family or didn't get lots of scholarships) comes out of college with near zero assets and lots of debt Bankruptcy is a court-mediated process. > Have a X number of year waiting period? This would be a necessary first piece. One needs a few years of income data to establish how much someone can pay. After that, I'd argue for % of discretionary income payments (up to a dollar cap) for N years, after which the unpaid balance (both principal and interest) are written off.

gammateam 8y ago

Hm seems like this should be a reality in conjunction with two or three more programs so that this populace still becomes educated

freedomben 8y ago
This is probably a minority opinion, but having acquired two bachelor degrees (one in Computer Science, the other in Business) and a Masters in Cybersecurity, I think it's a fallacy to assume that people coming out of college are educated. Some are, but many are not (yet they still get that piece of paper). I have now spent the last 10 years studying all kinds of things that I'm interested in, such as philosophy and physics, history, theology (both from a position of belief and disbelief as I've transitioned), and many more. I am now utterly convinced that if our goal is "that this populace still becomes educated" the correct answer is to make information more accessible, lower cost, and more entertaining. I still think there's a place for a traditional college degree, but that place is generally not as training for a career IMHO.
- gammateam 8y ago
  I agree, but until that framework exists I see colleges at least expose people to concepts students that have to wrap their head around even if those people are merely good at getting high scores. I’m really glad that a lot of movies and literature doesnt dumb down a lot of the science tropes as much as it used to.
- hurryskurry 8y ago
  The traditional college degree should be geared towards academia imo. You don't need a college degree for most jobs really. You can learn almost anything on the job. And as someone also with two bachelors pursuing a PhD I agree that most people are not that educated. In my opinion more focus should be put on early childhood education and public school. I felt like I learned nothing in hs, and now feel I could easily have gotten a whole undergrad during that time, had I known better how to teach myself