7 ms·

This has nothing to do with cyber warfare. Its just pushing the envelope towards full censorship of the internet. They get the systems in place, they run drill

by cptaj 8y ago

This has nothing to do with cyber warfare. Its just pushing the envelope towards full censorship of the internet. They get the systems in place, they run drills to get the population used to the idea, then they close specific sectors, then they close everything and have special "open sectors" and then you're fucked. Don't fall for it.

abledon 8y ago
people go to war to gain control over something. If you can do so by censoring ideas, great! That is a lot cheaper than actual war.
- staplers 8y ago
  .. I'm starting to see a lot of outrageous opinions like this on 'normal' forums like Reddit and HN with people defending this type of authoritarianism. I see the internet trending so extreme to the point it's useless for me. Not sure if others feel the same. Makes me sad to remember the hope I used to feel about its possibilities.
  - ecshafer 8y ago
    I don't believe the gp is defending authoritarianism, at least I hope not. I think they were in an academic sense providing an explanation for why these authoritarian governments behave in that manner.
  - api 8y ago
    For the past 10-15 years there has been a broad based trend toward authoritarianism. I see it on both the left and the right. Most libertarians seem to have become either fascists or authoritarian socialists. What you see in forums reflects this larger trend. It also seems to be a global trend that spans cultures, nations, religions, etc. I am not sure exactly why this is happening, but my guess would be a lot of extreme change very fast driven by technology. Most people are intimidated by rapid change. The tendency is to run to the big alpha and close ranks with your own tribe. Your brain stem still thinks you are a hunter gatherer in the African savannah.
    - pjc50 8y ago
      My guess would be that people have paid for it to happen through some very effective propaganda.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - interfixus 8y ago
      Out of curiosity, in what way do you see the right moving towards authoritarianism?
    - ethbro 8y ago
      I think it's due to a fundamental misunderstanding of how leadership works. There are a number of studies that suggest that transparency past a certain point decreases the effectiveness of a democracy. The implication being that most people have a worse calibration than professionals on when to deal and when to oppose, to achieve their goals as often as possible. And consequently people drive their leaders to act counter to the people's own interests out of negotiation ignorance. Authoritarianism is a mirage of effectiveness against a morass of the public's own making.
  - gammateam 8y ago
    Because people see it works in their own private communities. Just from acknowledging its effectiveness doesn't mean people are defending it, just recognizing that it is a really effective practice. I think its outrageous that someone's lack of vilification is seen as tacit consent of the behavior.
  - ordu 8y ago
    > outrageous opinions Opinion can't be outrageous. Opinion is an idea, ideas doesn't kill people. Other people do.
    - hyperman1 8y ago
      Guns dont kill people, other people do. Huh, why are there so many gun related deaths in the only country preaching this? Must be one of those strange coincidences. See also the pen being more mighty than the sword etc...
    - wycy 8y ago
      Outrageous != Kills people
    - afiori 8y ago
      Ideas can kill millions. Infanticide as a sport is an outrageous idea, genocide is an outrageous idea. Ideas and beliefs are real and exists as such in our human experience.
      - ordu 8y ago
        > Ideas can kill millions. No, it is always people who kills people. > Ideas and beliefs are real and exists as such in our human experience. Yeah, but they do not kill. It is always people. Do not blame ideas for the faults of people.
        jddj 8y ago
        The idea that adjectives can only apply to humans is pretty novel. Wait, can I say that? Can statements be considered ridiculous? Or is that just people too?
        ordu 8y ago
        I didn't said that any adjective cannot be applied to an idea. It is moral judgements that mustn't. You'll risk to damage your ability to think clearly, if you allowed your moral to judge ideas. Judge actions if you must, but not ideas.
  - abledon 8y ago
    ya wtf ofc its terrible, but its obvious that its not just 'censorship', it is a form of war waged by thought control
  - scarejunba 8y ago
    Could it be that you're just misinterpreting these through the lens of your worldview? To me the guy you're responding to seems like someone who is likely to stand on the side of anti-authoritarianism
  - imrelaxed 8y ago
    The above opinion get’s circulated quite a bit through Russian media. I speak Russian and check in on what’s going over there from time to time and let me tell you since 2014 shit has really hit the proverbial fan over there, television sensorship is utter and complete, preposterous lies are aired by the hour every hour, news segments are either heavily spun or straight up manufactured with actors and props, tv shows with audience participation train their audience to react only in a government sanctioned way, shows with participants from outside the studio are never live, 90% of Russian news and talk show discussion is about foreign policy, very rarely about the internal state of Russia, the major line being pushed is that NATO is evil and closing in around Russia and it’s only thanks to the efforts of Putin that Russia hasn’t been invaded or destroyed by immigrants, muslims, homosexuals, deviants and atheists like the “dying europe”, oh and the west is actually to blame for everything that goes wrong in Russia and in the entire world really. I can go on and on about the insanity that is present Russia but will only add a few more notes, there is massive militarization of every part of society to go with antiwest hysteria, Young army for the kids and a ton of millitant nationalistic organizations for adults. People are going to jail for likes and reposts of forbidden content on social media and ladt month a new law made it illegal to disrespect government officials with possible fine or jail time as punishment. That’s all I have time to report, but if you thought things were getting cooky in the west lately this quick overview of Russia might make you feel better by comparison.
    - simula67 8y ago
      Things have gotten a lot worse between Russia and West. West has backed out of INF, introduced sanctions, announced plans to militarized space etc
      - imrelaxed 8y ago
        All of the things the west has done are completely justified in my view, in fact as someone intimately familiar with the state and motivations of Russia, I belive that the west is not doing enough to safeguard itself from the Russian threat that is developing very quickly. Russia had been cheating the INF for years and China was never a part so it was only logical for US to reset. Sanctions are a direct result of agressive, revanchist and murderous actions Russia is taking towards it’s neighbors and the attempts to manipulate politics and destabilize the west. Millitarized space is now a necessity due to Russias development of hypersonic ballistic nukes which avoid our existing missile defence shield, as well as Russia’s own experiments with militarized satellites.
- Const-me 8y ago
  Russia is fighting 2 actual wars. Offensive war against Ukraine since 2014. Civil war in Syria since 2015. You can't substitute wars with censorship, quite the opposite, they often go together. Not because one of them is cause, because both are consequences of authoritarianism.
reaperducer 8y ago
FTA: "Eventually the Russian government wants all domestic traffic to pass through these routing points. This is believed to be part of an effort to set up a mass censorship system akin to that seen in China, which tries to scrub out prohibited traffic."
JackPoach 8y ago
First, you overestimate western media influence on Russian population, which is essentially so minor you can completely disregard it. Even domestically fewer and fewer Americans(Brits) take American or British media seriously. Second, many governments (not just Russian one) have been very effective at censorship without disconnecting from the Internet. China is the only county that does both censorship and 'the Great Firewall'. Saudi Arabia is perfectly capable of very strict censorship without doing what China did to the very same extent. AFAIK Facebook, YouTube, Twitter are all accessible in KSA and are used by millions of Saudis on a daily basis.
- gandhium 8y ago
  > First, you overestimate western media influence on Russian population, which is essentially so minor you can completely disregard it If it's so minor, why Kremlin (in current and previous reincarnation) so worried about it?
- ernst_klim 8y ago
  >you overestimate western media influence on Russian population They don't want to turn off western media, they want to turn off people like Navalny and thousands of government critics who use facebook, telegram and youtube, plus Russian anti-gove media located abroad for the safety reasons, like Meduza. They've already tried to block telegram and failed, now they are going a more radical way.
freeflight 8y ago
This has everything to do with keeping Russian digital sovereignty intact in case "digital blockades" will become an actual thing. Like it or not, but Facebook and Google sitting in the US, collecting massive amounts of private data from people all over the world, while the NSA just taps straight into exchanges, like the DE-CIX, means that the Internet is an inherently very hostile place to any non-Five eyes [0] actors. It's also for those above reasons that Russia and China have massive local social media alternatives, they don't want their citizen's data to end up on US servers. For countries like Russia and China, it's actually important to make sure their digital infrastructure doesn't fall apart the moment a US company, or those aligned with Five-Eye interests, decide to shut them out. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes

by cptaj 8y ago

abledon 8y ago

people go to war to gain control over something. If you can do so by censoring ideas, great! That is a lot cheaper than actual war.

staplers 8y ago
.. I'm starting to see a lot of outrageous opinions like this on 'normal' forums like Reddit and HN with people defending this type of authoritarianism. I see the internet trending so extreme to the point it's useless for me. Not sure if others feel the same. Makes me sad to remember the hope I used to feel about its possibilities.
- ecshafer 8y ago
  I don't believe the gp is defending authoritarianism, at least I hope not. I think they were in an academic sense providing an explanation for why these authoritarian governments behave in that manner.
- api 8y ago
  For the past 10-15 years there has been a broad based trend toward authoritarianism. I see it on both the left and the right. Most libertarians seem to have become either fascists or authoritarian socialists. What you see in forums reflects this larger trend. It also seems to be a global trend that spans cultures, nations, religions, etc. I am not sure exactly why this is happening, but my guess would be a lot of extreme change very fast driven by technology. Most people are intimidated by rapid change. The tendency is to run to the big alpha and close ranks with your own tribe. Your brain stem still thinks you are a hunter gatherer in the African savannah.
  - pjc50 8y ago
    My guess would be that people have paid for it to happen through some very effective propaganda.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - interfixus 8y ago
    Out of curiosity, in what way do you see the right moving towards authoritarianism?
  - ethbro 8y ago
    I think it's due to a fundamental misunderstanding of how leadership works. There are a number of studies that suggest that transparency past a certain point decreases the effectiveness of a democracy. The implication being that most people have a worse calibration than professionals on when to deal and when to oppose, to achieve their goals as often as possible. And consequently people drive their leaders to act counter to the people's own interests out of negotiation ignorance. Authoritarianism is a mirage of effectiveness against a morass of the public's own making.
- gammateam 8y ago
  Because people see it works in their own private communities. Just from acknowledging its effectiveness doesn't mean people are defending it, just recognizing that it is a really effective practice. I think its outrageous that someone's lack of vilification is seen as tacit consent of the behavior.
- ordu 8y ago
  > outrageous opinions Opinion can't be outrageous. Opinion is an idea, ideas doesn't kill people. Other people do.
  - hyperman1 8y ago
    Guns dont kill people, other people do. Huh, why are there so many gun related deaths in the only country preaching this? Must be one of those strange coincidences. See also the pen being more mighty than the sword etc...
  - wycy 8y ago
    Outrageous != Kills people
  - afiori 8y ago
    Ideas can kill millions. Infanticide as a sport is an outrageous idea, genocide is an outrageous idea. Ideas and beliefs are real and exists as such in our human experience.
    - ordu 8y ago
      > Ideas can kill millions. No, it is always people who kills people. > Ideas and beliefs are real and exists as such in our human experience. Yeah, but they do not kill. It is always people. Do not blame ideas for the faults of people.
      - jddj 8y ago
        The idea that adjectives can only apply to humans is pretty novel. Wait, can I say that? Can statements be considered ridiculous? Or is that just people too?
        ordu 8y ago
        I didn't said that any adjective cannot be applied to an idea. It is moral judgements that mustn't. You'll risk to damage your ability to think clearly, if you allowed your moral to judge ideas. Judge actions if you must, but not ideas.
- abledon 8y ago
  ya wtf ofc its terrible, but its obvious that its not just 'censorship', it is a form of war waged by thought control
- scarejunba 8y ago
  Could it be that you're just misinterpreting these through the lens of your worldview? To me the guy you're responding to seems like someone who is likely to stand on the side of anti-authoritarianism
- imrelaxed 8y ago
  The above opinion get’s circulated quite a bit through Russian media. I speak Russian and check in on what’s going over there from time to time and let me tell you since 2014 shit has really hit the proverbial fan over there, television sensorship is utter and complete, preposterous lies are aired by the hour every hour, news segments are either heavily spun or straight up manufactured with actors and props, tv shows with audience participation train their audience to react only in a government sanctioned way, shows with participants from outside the studio are never live, 90% of Russian news and talk show discussion is about foreign policy, very rarely about the internal state of Russia, the major line being pushed is that NATO is evil and closing in around Russia and it’s only thanks to the efforts of Putin that Russia hasn’t been invaded or destroyed by immigrants, muslims, homosexuals, deviants and atheists like the “dying europe”, oh and the west is actually to blame for everything that goes wrong in Russia and in the entire world really. I can go on and on about the insanity that is present Russia but will only add a few more notes, there is massive militarization of every part of society to go with antiwest hysteria, Young army for the kids and a ton of millitant nationalistic organizations for adults. People are going to jail for likes and reposts of forbidden content on social media and ladt month a new law made it illegal to disrespect government officials with possible fine or jail time as punishment. That’s all I have time to report, but if you thought things were getting cooky in the west lately this quick overview of Russia might make you feel better by comparison.
  - simula67 8y ago
    Things have gotten a lot worse between Russia and West. West has backed out of INF, introduced sanctions, announced plans to militarized space etc
    - imrelaxed 8y ago
      All of the things the west has done are completely justified in my view, in fact as someone intimately familiar with the state and motivations of Russia, I belive that the west is not doing enough to safeguard itself from the Russian threat that is developing very quickly. Russia had been cheating the INF for years and China was never a part so it was only logical for US to reset. Sanctions are a direct result of agressive, revanchist and murderous actions Russia is taking towards it’s neighbors and the attempts to manipulate politics and destabilize the west. Millitarized space is now a necessity due to Russias development of hypersonic ballistic nukes which avoid our existing missile defence shield, as well as Russia’s own experiments with militarized satellites.
Const-me 8y ago
Russia is fighting 2 actual wars. Offensive war against Ukraine since 2014. Civil war in Syria since 2015. You can't substitute wars with censorship, quite the opposite, they often go together. Not because one of them is cause, because both are consequences of authoritarianism.

reaperducer 8y ago

FTA: "Eventually the Russian government wants all domestic traffic to pass through these routing points. This is believed to be part of an effort to set up a mass censorship system akin to that seen in China, which tries to scrub out prohibited traffic."

JackPoach 8y ago

First, you overestimate western media influence on Russian population, which is essentially so minor you can completely disregard it. Even domestically fewer and fewer Americans(Brits) take American or British media seriously. Second, many governments (not just Russian one) have been very effective at censorship without disconnecting from the Internet. China is the only county that does both censorship and 'the Great Firewall'. Saudi Arabia is perfectly capable of very strict censorship without doing what China did to the very same extent. AFAIK Facebook, YouTube, Twitter are all accessible in KSA and are used by millions of Saudis on a daily basis.

gandhium 8y ago
> First, you overestimate western media influence on Russian population, which is essentially so minor you can completely disregard it If it's so minor, why Kremlin (in current and previous reincarnation) so worried about it?
ernst_klim 8y ago
>you overestimate western media influence on Russian population They don't want to turn off western media, they want to turn off people like Navalny and thousands of government critics who use facebook, telegram and youtube, plus Russian anti-gove media located abroad for the safety reasons, like Meduza. They've already tried to block telegram and failed, now they are going a more radical way.

freeflight 8y ago

This has everything to do with keeping Russian digital sovereignty intact in case "digital blockades" will become an actual thing. Like it or not, but Facebook and Google sitting in the US, collecting massive amounts of private data from people all over the world, while the NSA just taps straight into exchanges, like the DE-CIX, means that the Internet is an inherently very hostile place to any non-Five eyes [0] actors. It's also for those above reasons that Russia and China have massive local social media alternatives, they don't want their citizen's data to end up on US servers. For countries like Russia and China, it's actually important to make sure their digital infrastructure doesn't fall apart the moment a US company, or those aligned with Five-Eye interests, decide to shut them out. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Eyes