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Thanks for writing this. I quit my "startup employer" last year. I was leaving at a critical juncture and the company begged for me to stay at least for 3 month

Thanks for writing this. I quit my "startup employer" last year. I was leaving at a critical juncture and the company begged for me to stay at least for 3 months to complete an important project. I said "fuck you" and left. I had $300K worth of ISOs and 90 days exercise window which I let expire. In fact the 90 days window is what made me quit before completely 1 year. Quiting sooner is better than wasting 5 years.

avip 8y ago
I'd strongly advise against saying "fuck you" to anyone. Leaving on good terms is important, and pays off. Make it a habit early on.
- justinjlynn 8y ago
  You know, there are times when it's entirely appropriate. Perhaps we could treat each other as adults and simply ask if there was a particular reason they didn't think parting amicably was an option? They may have had one.
  - berberous 8y ago
    It may be entirely appropriate and deserving, but the person saying it is usually just shooting themselves in the foot. The employer, at the end of the day, does not care. It is temporary catharsis, but all it can do is hurt you in the long run.
    - justinjlynn 8y ago
      This is likely to be true, but I must take issue with the assertion that "all it can do is hurt you". It is far likely to not matter at all - especially if one doesn't use that party as a reference, and if one was so unjustly treated as to be prompted to say such a thing; why would one do so? Still, one should also probably err on the side of discretion - it's certainly not bad advice but it isn't the one answer.
  - praneshp 8y ago
    > Perhaps we could treat each other as adults A good adult like thing to start with is not literally say "fuck you" when leaving.
    - justinjlynn 8y ago
      A good adult thing to do is to start recognising that different people have different ways of dealing with situations. A good adult thing to do is to start understanding that there is no one absolute answer to almost any question one could ask - including, but not limited to, the question: "Is it appropriate to tell someone 'fuck you' on the way out the door?".
      - magpi3 8y ago
        Adults realize that actions have consequences. Saying fuck you to someone might make me feel better in the moment, but what would it give me in the long run? I would be giving others the chance to view me as childish, unprofessional, and uncivil. Where is the gain in that?
        tasuki 8y ago
        If you were childish, unprofessional, and uncivil, it would be the honest thing to do. Not everything has to be done for personal gain. On a related note, I'd much rather be told an honest "fuck you" than a dishonest "it was good working with you". The former is an opportunity for me to reflect.
    - int_19h 8y ago
      Depends a lot on the context behind that leaving. There are absolutely situations where it can be warranted - abuse (including verbal), for example. Politeness is the default state of affairs, but depending on how you behave, you might lose that privilege.
      - faissaloo 8y ago
        In any case where a 'fuck you' is warranted deadpan silence works better.
- mlthoughts2018 8y ago
  The start-up world is not at all a place where basic adult norms apply. If they are shoving you in a loud sardine can for 12-16 hours per day while paying you way below market despite VC funding, no match on the 401(k), telling you to “wear many hats” instead of taking your career goals seriously, scamming you with “unlimited vacation” and probably not even bothering to give you decent health insurance, then a “fuck you” on the way out is frankly better than they deserve.
  - manigandham 8y ago
    Why not on the way in then and avoid all the mess?
    - mlthoughts2018 8y ago
      Hey, I fully agree. We software engineers do such an embarrasingly bad job negotiating for minimally healthy working conditions or wages that more fairly reflect our contributions to profits. A totally reasonable heuristic if you’re looking for a job that won’t make you miserable is to just wholly avoid start-ups. To be clear, this is a heuristic even for people who are looking to work with modern tool stacks, be given responsibility they might not be given at traditional companies, gain exposure to business or VC insight or networking, etc. Start-up jobs don’t offer those types of things.
  - Zanni 8y ago
    It's not a question of what they deserve but what it costs you down the road. My friend and I both worked at the same Bay Area startup under extremely trying circumstances. We knew the deal going in but this was ridiculous (no salary, just illiquid stock plus room and board--in a house that was under construction). When I left, they wanted me to pay for my long distance charges (this was in the 80s), which I couldn't afford to do because I'd been working for free and spending my meager savings down. I was so tempted to tell them "fuck you, fuck your phone bill and keep your stock." But I swallowed my temper, worked out a deal and parted on good terms. When the company was acquired by Microsoft, I was invited up to Seattle to join them. The stock I was ready to throw in the dumpster was eventually worth millions (plus additional stock grants from MS). My friend went the other route and sued the company for labor law violations. He got some short term satisfaction and a $20,000 settlement but burned some major bridges. The moral here is not to endure abuse politely but to remain civil when possible. Leave before you get to "fuck you" territory. (Bonus moral: you think the startup world is crazy now? You should have seen it then.)
- taspeotis 8y ago
  May the bridges I burn light the way!
- taneq 8y ago
  Depends on the circumstances. I'm pretty easygoing but ultimately, bridges have two ends and either end can be set alight.
  - daveFNbuck 8y ago
    Even if you feel the bridge has already been burnt, what's the benefit of burning the other end yourself?
    - jachee 8y ago
      Human beings have these things called "feelings". Sometimes they make sub-optimal or irrational decisions based on—and in service of—those feelings. If you set your end of our bridge on fire, I'm nuking my end from orbit. Why? Because screw you. If you don't need me, I sure as heck don't need you.
      - chillacy 8y ago
        And a big part of growing up is controlling those feelings when they lead to outcomes that you'd rather not have.
      - daveFNbuck 8y ago
        I understand why there's an urge to do that. The disagreement here is about whether it's a sub-optimal or irrational decision. You seem to agree with me on that point.
        jachee 8y ago
        My point, that you seem to have missed, is that sometimes what may objectively be the "best" long-term decisions are quite often not "worth it" short-term. Acting on feelings is usually good for the mental health, even if it seems irrational or inefficient. Don't knock it until you try it.
        daveFNbuck 8y ago
- dchichkov 8y ago
  You are right. And this is one of the places where an employee takes a bigger risk than a founder. An employee needs references from previous employers. A founder does not need any references from employees. It is often the case this risk is underestimated and not compensated sufficiently. There is a need to normalize startup employee comp, in a similar manner founders package was normalized about two decades back. It was YC that did it, AFAIK.
- moreoutput 8y ago
  Agreed. Would be nice if this attitude was weeded out before anyone was hired though.
- mathattack 8y ago
  Agreed. People will forget the details of an exit before they forget the emotion. And somebody somewhere will do a back channel background check on you. 3 (or 12) years from now the reference (whom you won’t choose) will remember how they felt about you more than how they felt about your performance. The issues with an exercise window should be discussed on the way in, not the way out.
  - KorematsuFred 8y ago
    > on the way in, not the way out. My employer acquired another startup where I worked and hence I ended up with the new employer. As said above it was immigration status that gave mess less negotiating power because my status in the country is dependent on the employer.
    - mathattack 8y ago
      Sounds like abuse of the visa system. It puts you in a tough spot.
- KorematsuFred 8y ago
  The advice is absolutely well taken. Just to clarify I did not use such harsh words for anyone though that is what went inside my mind and that is what the employer felt. In that sense it was a symbolic fuck you rather than a real verbal one. It kind of makes the entire discussion on this thread moot. Also it is about optics. Many employers blatantly engage in exploitative behavior with a straight face and talk about "how we are like a family". Similarly I too can make a beautiful farewell speech that how I learned so much at the job and how thankful I am for such wonderful co-workers working towards a noble goal of changing the world with a straight face. Everyone knows it is fake, everyone knows the facts and yet everyone is forced to smile The above employer faked the valuation data to make his company look far more valued than what it actually was. So I have no idea what those $300K convert into in case of a real acquisition. But I have to pay thousands of dollars to the employer and IRS to exercise them. They did tamper with some of my key immigration status, filed patents without including my name in it and also coerced me into signing a "bond" (though it is illegal if you are on h1b). Of course it took lot of patient negotiations and "difficult conversations" to resolve every single issue and throughout I felt humiliated (my current visa status is tied to the employment and hence I could not quit on the spot.) People say why don't you go back to your country then but when you have 2 US citizen kids in school and wife whose work authorization is linked to your visa status you have to patiently drink all the insults and quietly suffer the humiliation for the sake of family.

avip 8y ago

I'd strongly advise against saying "fuck you" to anyone. Leaving on good terms is important, and pays off. Make it a habit early on.

justinjlynn 8y ago
You know, there are times when it's entirely appropriate. Perhaps we could treat each other as adults and simply ask if there was a particular reason they didn't think parting amicably was an option? They may have had one.
- berberous 8y ago
  It may be entirely appropriate and deserving, but the person saying it is usually just shooting themselves in the foot. The employer, at the end of the day, does not care. It is temporary catharsis, but all it can do is hurt you in the long run.
  - justinjlynn 8y ago
    This is likely to be true, but I must take issue with the assertion that "all it can do is hurt you". It is far likely to not matter at all - especially if one doesn't use that party as a reference, and if one was so unjustly treated as to be prompted to say such a thing; why would one do so? Still, one should also probably err on the side of discretion - it's certainly not bad advice but it isn't the one answer.
- praneshp 8y ago
  > Perhaps we could treat each other as adults A good adult like thing to start with is not literally say "fuck you" when leaving.
  - justinjlynn 8y ago
    A good adult thing to do is to start recognising that different people have different ways of dealing with situations. A good adult thing to do is to start understanding that there is no one absolute answer to almost any question one could ask - including, but not limited to, the question: "Is it appropriate to tell someone 'fuck you' on the way out the door?".
    - magpi3 8y ago
      Adults realize that actions have consequences. Saying fuck you to someone might make me feel better in the moment, but what would it give me in the long run? I would be giving others the chance to view me as childish, unprofessional, and uncivil. Where is the gain in that?
      - tasuki 8y ago
        If you were childish, unprofessional, and uncivil, it would be the honest thing to do. Not everything has to be done for personal gain. On a related note, I'd much rather be told an honest "fuck you" than a dishonest "it was good working with you". The former is an opportunity for me to reflect.
  - int_19h 8y ago
    Depends a lot on the context behind that leaving. There are absolutely situations where it can be warranted - abuse (including verbal), for example. Politeness is the default state of affairs, but depending on how you behave, you might lose that privilege.
    - faissaloo 8y ago
      In any case where a 'fuck you' is warranted deadpan silence works better.
mlthoughts2018 8y ago
The start-up world is not at all a place where basic adult norms apply. If they are shoving you in a loud sardine can for 12-16 hours per day while paying you way below market despite VC funding, no match on the 401(k), telling you to “wear many hats” instead of taking your career goals seriously, scamming you with “unlimited vacation” and probably not even bothering to give you decent health insurance, then a “fuck you” on the way out is frankly better than they deserve.
- manigandham 8y ago
  Why not on the way in then and avoid all the mess?
  - mlthoughts2018 8y ago
    Hey, I fully agree. We software engineers do such an embarrasingly bad job negotiating for minimally healthy working conditions or wages that more fairly reflect our contributions to profits. A totally reasonable heuristic if you’re looking for a job that won’t make you miserable is to just wholly avoid start-ups. To be clear, this is a heuristic even for people who are looking to work with modern tool stacks, be given responsibility they might not be given at traditional companies, gain exposure to business or VC insight or networking, etc. Start-up jobs don’t offer those types of things.
- Zanni 8y ago
  It's not a question of what they deserve but what it costs you down the road. My friend and I both worked at the same Bay Area startup under extremely trying circumstances. We knew the deal going in but this was ridiculous (no salary, just illiquid stock plus room and board--in a house that was under construction). When I left, they wanted me to pay for my long distance charges (this was in the 80s), which I couldn't afford to do because I'd been working for free and spending my meager savings down. I was so tempted to tell them "fuck you, fuck your phone bill and keep your stock." But I swallowed my temper, worked out a deal and parted on good terms. When the company was acquired by Microsoft, I was invited up to Seattle to join them. The stock I was ready to throw in the dumpster was eventually worth millions (plus additional stock grants from MS). My friend went the other route and sued the company for labor law violations. He got some short term satisfaction and a $20,000 settlement but burned some major bridges. The moral here is not to endure abuse politely but to remain civil when possible. Leave before you get to "fuck you" territory. (Bonus moral: you think the startup world is crazy now? You should have seen it then.)
taspeotis 8y ago
May the bridges I burn light the way!
taneq 8y ago
Depends on the circumstances. I'm pretty easygoing but ultimately, bridges have two ends and either end can be set alight.
- daveFNbuck 8y ago
  Even if you feel the bridge has already been burnt, what's the benefit of burning the other end yourself?
  - jachee 8y ago
    Human beings have these things called "feelings". Sometimes they make sub-optimal or irrational decisions based on—and in service of—those feelings. If you set your end of our bridge on fire, I'm nuking my end from orbit. Why? Because screw you. If you don't need me, I sure as heck don't need you.
    - chillacy 8y ago
      And a big part of growing up is controlling those feelings when they lead to outcomes that you'd rather not have.
    - daveFNbuck 8y ago
      I understand why there's an urge to do that. The disagreement here is about whether it's a sub-optimal or irrational decision. You seem to agree with me on that point.
      - jachee 8y ago
        My point, that you seem to have missed, is that sometimes what may objectively be the "best" long-term decisions are quite often not "worth it" short-term. Acting on feelings is usually good for the mental health, even if it seems irrational or inefficient. Don't knock it until you try it.
        daveFNbuck 8y ago
dchichkov 8y ago
You are right. And this is one of the places where an employee takes a bigger risk than a founder. An employee needs references from previous employers. A founder does not need any references from employees. It is often the case this risk is underestimated and not compensated sufficiently. There is a need to normalize startup employee comp, in a similar manner founders package was normalized about two decades back. It was YC that did it, AFAIK.
moreoutput 8y ago
Agreed. Would be nice if this attitude was weeded out before anyone was hired though.
mathattack 8y ago
Agreed. People will forget the details of an exit before they forget the emotion. And somebody somewhere will do a back channel background check on you. 3 (or 12) years from now the reference (whom you won’t choose) will remember how they felt about you more than how they felt about your performance. The issues with an exercise window should be discussed on the way in, not the way out.
- KorematsuFred 8y ago
  > on the way in, not the way out. My employer acquired another startup where I worked and hence I ended up with the new employer. As said above it was immigration status that gave mess less negotiating power because my status in the country is dependent on the employer.
  - mathattack 8y ago
    Sounds like abuse of the visa system. It puts you in a tough spot.
KorematsuFred 8y ago
The advice is absolutely well taken. Just to clarify I did not use such harsh words for anyone though that is what went inside my mind and that is what the employer felt. In that sense it was a symbolic fuck you rather than a real verbal one. It kind of makes the entire discussion on this thread moot. Also it is about optics. Many employers blatantly engage in exploitative behavior with a straight face and talk about "how we are like a family". Similarly I too can make a beautiful farewell speech that how I learned so much at the job and how thankful I am for such wonderful co-workers working towards a noble goal of changing the world with a straight face. Everyone knows it is fake, everyone knows the facts and yet everyone is forced to smile The above employer faked the valuation data to make his company look far more valued than what it actually was. So I have no idea what those $300K convert into in case of a real acquisition. But I have to pay thousands of dollars to the employer and IRS to exercise them. They did tamper with some of my key immigration status, filed patents without including my name in it and also coerced me into signing a "bond" (though it is illegal if you are on h1b). Of course it took lot of patient negotiations and "difficult conversations" to resolve every single issue and throughout I felt humiliated (my current visa status is tied to the employment and hence I could not quit on the spot.) People say why don't you go back to your country then but when you have 2 US citizen kids in school and wife whose work authorization is linked to your visa status you have to patiently drink all the insults and quietly suffer the humiliation for the sake of family.