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I've never experienced anything like this - nor do I really understand what you mean (and nor could I without actually seeing some code). Given this, it's impo

I've never experienced anything like this - nor do I really understand what you mean (and nor could I without actually seeing some code). Given this, it's impossible for me to understand your claim that the white space approach is 'totally wrong or broken'. The leap from vague example (with a sample size of one) to all encompassing abstraction is too great. Having said that, I'm keen to ensure that I don't pursue the wrong path. I picked python because many people I respected said it was a good 'jam for beginners'. But that can't be true if it's 'totally wrong and broken'. Care to pony up with a proper account of your position?

aaronblohowiak 16y ago
It was probably a tabs vs spaces issue, leading to an oddity of a block of code at the wrong depth. The fix is to simply accept only tabs OR spaces as valid whitespace... then again, this is one of the things that annoys me about make, but I digress..
- xiongchiamiov 16y ago
  ...or just use a semi-decent editor that tells you when your code is indented inconsistently. I think we solved this problem like, 20 years ago or something.
  - dalke 16y ago
    Or start Python in '-t'/'-tt' mode to generate warnings/errors on inconsistent tab usage.
- silentbicycle 16y ago
  Well right, but make already had like six users, so it was too late to change. ;)
- joe_the_user 16y ago
  As I said, there are lots of fixes. But all the fixes depend on completely controlling the environment and the code production process. They work but they add "global control" need that is a bit more extreme than other languages. This qualifies as a "weird fragility" in my mind. Considering how many other levels of any given system might have weird fragilities, why be willing to accept language that guarantees you'll need to deal with such fragility by it's very structure? I'm sure I over-stated the problem when I first stated it ... but whenever I remember the situation, I feel the terribleness of it so I don't think it's unimportant.
  - aaronblohowiak 16y ago
    I meant to suggest that the language be made in the language. Changing your process to accomodate a misfeature is not a fix, it is a work-around. We agree that this is a case where computer-enforced order is more important than programmer freedom, though you could create human processes to work around the danger that such freedom affords you. I'm starting to get to the point of just wanting sexps everywhere...
silentbicycle 16y ago
I think it's a corner case.* While I don't personally care for Python anymore, I still think it's a good beginner language. * And after debugging production issues with proprietary compilers that had almost perfectly reliable hot-code loading...that's pretty minor. Not mixing up tabs and spaces probably covers it.

aaronblohowiak 16y ago

It was probably a tabs vs spaces issue, leading to an oddity of a block of code at the wrong depth. The fix is to simply accept only tabs OR spaces as valid whitespace... then again, this is one of the things that annoys me about make, but I digress..

xiongchiamiov 16y ago
...or just use a semi-decent editor that tells you when your code is indented inconsistently. I think we solved this problem like, 20 years ago or something.
- dalke 16y ago
  Or start Python in '-t'/'-tt' mode to generate warnings/errors on inconsistent tab usage.
silentbicycle 16y ago
Well right, but make already had like six users, so it was too late to change. ;)
joe_the_user 16y ago
As I said, there are lots of fixes. But all the fixes depend on completely controlling the environment and the code production process. They work but they add "global control" need that is a bit more extreme than other languages. This qualifies as a "weird fragility" in my mind. Considering how many other levels of any given system might have weird fragilities, why be willing to accept language that guarantees you'll need to deal with such fragility by it's very structure? I'm sure I over-stated the problem when I first stated it ... but whenever I remember the situation, I feel the terribleness of it so I don't think it's unimportant.
- aaronblohowiak 16y ago
  I meant to suggest that the language be made in the language. Changing your process to accomodate a misfeature is not a fix, it is a work-around. We agree that this is a case where computer-enforced order is more important than programmer freedom, though you could create human processes to work around the danger that such freedom affords you. I'm starting to get to the point of just wanting sexps everywhere...

silentbicycle 16y ago

I think it's a corner case.* While I don't personally care for Python anymore, I still think it's a good beginner language. * And after debugging production issues with proprietary compilers that had almost perfectly reliable hot-code loading...that's pretty minor. Not mixing up tabs and spaces probably covers it.