4 ms·

> I don't think any leverage I have my with my current company will translate into finding jobs at other companies. You are right. Even if you are at FAANG, it

by bitL 8y ago

> I don't think any leverage I have my with my current company will translate into finding jobs at other companies. You are right. Even if you are at FAANG, it doesn't really translate to a new environment, unless you are a direct pick by a CTO (you have to be famous in some way) or use your networking, which I consider unethical and don't do it.

dacox 8y ago
You consider networking to find a new job unethical?
viscanti 8y ago
> use your networking, which I consider unethical and don't do it. I don't understand the sentiment. Interviews are a proxy for how good you are. The companies hiring are very limited by what kind of information they can turn up about a candidate just through that process and for higher leveled positions like staff+ that might rarely be enough. Your network can speak much better about who you are and what value you can bring to a company. I don't understand how giving a hiring company better signal about your value is unethical.
- bitL 8y ago
  I have seen how groups of people with dubious ethical standards played whole companies, pushing each other forward at the expense of more capable people, later taking their cronies with them to whatever company they landed, applying the same strategy. One of them made it to a director position at Google, largely propelled by "great networking". I can't with clear conscience support cronyism that deprives others of their shot at greatness and don't do it myself (rejected a couple of CTO roles advised by a friend with contacts etc.). I decided that expert/meritocracy ideal is better than what I see throughout the industry and academia.
  - fouc 8y ago
    cronyism and networking are quite different things though
    - bitL 8y ago
      I agree that in theory they are different, but in practice they seem to blend quite significantly (viewed with my sample size of 1 of course).
      - viscanti 8y ago
        I just think you're over fitting to that sample size of one. It's like saying you're never going to talk to another human because two people once plotted a crime by talking to each other. You're conflating the ends with the means.
      - monktastic1 8y ago
        Does that mean that you don't trust yourself to separate them in practice?
    - marssaxman 8y ago
      Cronyism is what you call it from the outside; networking is what you call it from the inside.
  - matwood 8y ago
    > pushing each other forward at the expense of more capable people, later taking their cronies with them to whatever company they landed, applying the same strategy. So says you. This can also be thought of more charitably that someone hires people they know because there is much less risk. I've been working in software for ~20 years. I have a decent list of people who I would work with again, know what they bring to the table, and their strengths and weaknesses. If I had to build a new team tomorrow, you can bet I would be calling the people I know first.
    - scarface74 8y ago
      When I was a dev lead, you better believe I pulled in my former coworkers as well paid contractors because I trusted them. There was nothing underhanded about this. I let my manager and his manager know that they were friends and I had them go through extra interviews with my manager even though I usually had the final say about the contractors we brought in. I needed someone I could trust.
maxxxxx 8y ago
"use your networking, which I consider unethical and don't do it." Please don't shoot yourself in the foot. There is nothing unethical about this.
bcyn 8y ago
> networking, which I consider unethical and don't do it Humans are a social species, you can't avoid this if you want to get far.
fouc 8y ago
I think you misunderstand networking. Perhaps you think it's a way for people to create and then exploit their connections in order to get a job that they're clearly unqualified for. I will agree that's unethical. But that's not typically what networking is about, almost no one wants to recommend someone for a job if that person turns out to be an unqualified idiot. Networking is more about finding people/companies you have something in common with and once they know about you it's a lot easier to get hired or referred. It's not really about some form of nepotism or cronyism.
- foobarian 8y ago
  It feels like the OP came from a corrupt or communist locale where cronyism and nepotism were rampant. I grew up in a communist country like this and always found networking distasteful for that reason. However on the spectrum of hiring signals available it just turns out to be one with a very good SNR due to the trust involved.
matwood 8y ago
> or use your networking, which I consider unethical and don't do it. Have you worked with people who you would work with again and vice versa? Congratulations, you are using your networking.

by bitL 8y ago

dacox 8y ago

You consider networking to find a new job unethical?

viscanti 8y ago

> use your networking, which I consider unethical and don't do it. I don't understand the sentiment. Interviews are a proxy for how good you are. The companies hiring are very limited by what kind of information they can turn up about a candidate just through that process and for higher leveled positions like staff+ that might rarely be enough. Your network can speak much better about who you are and what value you can bring to a company. I don't understand how giving a hiring company better signal about your value is unethical.

bitL 8y ago
I have seen how groups of people with dubious ethical standards played whole companies, pushing each other forward at the expense of more capable people, later taking their cronies with them to whatever company they landed, applying the same strategy. One of them made it to a director position at Google, largely propelled by "great networking". I can't with clear conscience support cronyism that deprives others of their shot at greatness and don't do it myself (rejected a couple of CTO roles advised by a friend with contacts etc.). I decided that expert/meritocracy ideal is better than what I see throughout the industry and academia.
- fouc 8y ago
  cronyism and networking are quite different things though
  - bitL 8y ago
    I agree that in theory they are different, but in practice they seem to blend quite significantly (viewed with my sample size of 1 of course).
    - viscanti 8y ago
      I just think you're over fitting to that sample size of one. It's like saying you're never going to talk to another human because two people once plotted a crime by talking to each other. You're conflating the ends with the means.
    - monktastic1 8y ago
      Does that mean that you don't trust yourself to separate them in practice?
  - marssaxman 8y ago
    Cronyism is what you call it from the outside; networking is what you call it from the inside.
- matwood 8y ago
  > pushing each other forward at the expense of more capable people, later taking their cronies with them to whatever company they landed, applying the same strategy. So says you. This can also be thought of more charitably that someone hires people they know because there is much less risk. I've been working in software for ~20 years. I have a decent list of people who I would work with again, know what they bring to the table, and their strengths and weaknesses. If I had to build a new team tomorrow, you can bet I would be calling the people I know first.
  - scarface74 8y ago
    When I was a dev lead, you better believe I pulled in my former coworkers as well paid contractors because I trusted them. There was nothing underhanded about this. I let my manager and his manager know that they were friends and I had them go through extra interviews with my manager even though I usually had the final say about the contractors we brought in. I needed someone I could trust.

maxxxxx 8y ago

"use your networking, which I consider unethical and don't do it." Please don't shoot yourself in the foot. There is nothing unethical about this.

bcyn 8y ago

> networking, which I consider unethical and don't do it Humans are a social species, you can't avoid this if you want to get far.

fouc 8y ago

I think you misunderstand networking. Perhaps you think it's a way for people to create and then exploit their connections in order to get a job that they're clearly unqualified for. I will agree that's unethical. But that's not typically what networking is about, almost no one wants to recommend someone for a job if that person turns out to be an unqualified idiot. Networking is more about finding people/companies you have something in common with and once they know about you it's a lot easier to get hired or referred. It's not really about some form of nepotism or cronyism.

foobarian 8y ago
It feels like the OP came from a corrupt or communist locale where cronyism and nepotism were rampant. I grew up in a communist country like this and always found networking distasteful for that reason. However on the spectrum of hiring signals available it just turns out to be one with a very good SNR due to the trust involved.

matwood 8y ago

> or use your networking, which I consider unethical and don't do it. Have you worked with people who you would work with again and vice versa? Congratulations, you are using your networking.