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>There is a very high likelihood that when a user complains about Wayland support for Nvidia they mean this As the actual person who receives these complaints.

>There is a very high likelihood that when a user complains about Wayland support for Nvidia they mean this As the actual person who receives these complaints... this isn't true. Once it's explained, though, the users still stick around and get angry because they made dumb, uninformed choices as a consumer and think it's our fault. >If you're representing Wayland, this problem is your problem whether you want it or not. It's not. We can just choose not to solve it. Use X and buy smarter when the next harware upgrade comes around, or wait until your hardware is supported by nouveau if you don't want to upgrade any time soon. >What is the current UX for screenshotting, screencapture, and screencapture with audio for the most featureful DE that uses Wayland atm? Is there a program out there that offers push-button access for these three features (choosing the most sensible default format in each case)? I don't really know what the situation is for more noob-friendly DEs like GNOME, but on sway this tool is the i3-equivalent of push-button simplicity: https://wayland.emersion.fr/grim/ https://wayland.emersion.fr/grim/ Push-button screen capture isn't there yet.

shittyadmin 8y ago
> As the actual person who receives these complaints... this isn't true. Once it's explained, though, the users still stick around and get angry because they made dumb, uninformed choices as a consumer and think it's our fault. In terms of sheer bang for your buck, Nvidia's cards have been on top for a while now (there's a good reason cryptocurrency miners have been using them), on Linux their proprietary drivers are the most stable in games - unless your only goal is to run Wayland, it's not exactly a "dumb, uninformed choice". This seems like a clear problem with Wayland developers mentality if they expect consumers to make purchasing decisions based on their platform alone.
- Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
  >In terms of sheer bang for your buck, Nvidia's cards have been on top for a while now But they have not been on top for a long enough period that cards bought when they were are generally supported by nouveau, and cards bought after should be AMD. On top of this, the reality is that most people don't need top of the line GPUs. Last year's GPUs will run next year's games at max specs. >Linux their proprietary drivers are the most stable in games were
  - shittyadmin 8y ago
    > Last year's GPUs will run next year's games at max specs. If you want to run at 1080p@60hz perhaps, but many people now are going to 1440p, 2160p, 144hz or some combination there of which can easily strain even the latest GPUs.
    - Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
      I said max specs. I didn't stutter.
      - sitzkrieg 8y ago
        Nice argument
    - shmerl 8y ago
      You can get high end AMD cards for these, so it's not an issue if you want to use open drivers. Last year was a bit tight due to crytpocurrency mining rush (AMD GPUs were hard to buy, prices were crazy inflated and so on). This year should be better for gaming with open drivers, especially after Navi will come out.
      - shittyadmin 8y ago
        Last I heard AMD drivers, both proprietary and open have severe stability issues on Linux. Is that no longer the case?
        shmerl 8y ago
        Not anymore for open drivers. Mesa developers had a lot of push to fix gaming related bugs. If you know some that are still broken, please open a bug on Mesa bug tracker and also list it here: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/wiki/Games_broken_on_Mesa https://www.gamingonlinux.com/wiki/Games_broken_on_Mesa This list is monitored by Mesa developers. These days AMD explicitly recommend using open drivers for gaming.
        8y ago
- Iolaum 8y ago
  It is an uninformed choice if you want to run wayland. That doesn't mean there aren't other factors at play. For example back when I was shopping for a laptop 2yrs ago, AMD GPU's weren't even available on most vendors. Even now linux vendors such as system76 and entroware don't ship amd cards on their laptops. CUDA dominating the Deep Learning space doesn't help either. That said my next hardware upgrade will definitely have an open source supported GPU or I m just not buying.
  - anon1385 8y ago
    >It is an uninformed choice if you want to run wayland Creating a product that only works for people who already a) know about it and b) buy their hardware specifically to support it doesn't seem like a good strategy to achieve widespread adoption, which requires converting people who don't currently use or know about wayland.
    - vetinari 8y ago
      Nvidia goes out of their way not to play nice with Linux. It is no wonder, that Linux ecosystem will not accommodate their special requirements. When you are purchasing Nvidia, you are giving money to Nvidia. If you have problem with some software not working with a product your purchased, contact the people you gave money to for support.
- vetinari 8y ago
  Cryptocurrency miners preferred AMD cards, actually. And not the latest ones, but Polaris (4x0, 5x0), which provided the best efficiency wrt power, performance and price. It's gamers, that prefer Nvidia. Nvidia has better optimized driver stack, although they also sometimes play fast and loose.
  - shittyadmin 8y ago
    Originally, yes, in recent years however that changed. Look at the cards used for ZCash, Monero, etc.
    - shmerl 8y ago
      Miners are increasingly moving to specialized ASICs anyway. Which is good for gamers who needs GPUs :)
  - azinman2 8y ago
    Any anyone doing deep learning.
- shmerl 8y ago
  > on Linux their proprietary drivers are the most stable in games Not anymore, as long as you are using latest Mesa. Also, Nvidia usage on Linux is gradually dropping. See: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/index.php?module=statistics&view=trends https://www.gamingonlinux.com/index.php?module=statistics&vi... So I agree with position that compositor developers should not waste their time on supporting the blob. If Nvidia are so eager, let them contribute support, like they proposed for KWin.
  - mroche 8y ago
    From the site: > This is currently in BETA. There are 8338 registered users on GamingOnLinux. These statistics are gathered using their manually entered data on their profiles. Please update your profile here to make this as accurate as possible. > As with any survey, this won't be 100% accurate and should be taken with a pinch of salt. 8K users on a site about gaming. Doesn’t include RHEL/CentOS in its distribution chart. Way too myopic of a sample to even declare NVIDIA usage on Linux is dropping. For all we know it could be that new users are signing up that don’t have NVIDIA hardware, it doesn’t show a shift away from NVIDIA. I know that your comment is about games, but over in the professional CG/VFX and AI/ML spaces, AMD is rarely touched. For both workstations and server racks.
    - shmerl 8y ago
      I was talking about gaming. RHEL/CentOS are server distros, not gaming oriented by any means. Fedora is more like it in such cases, if you prefer that family of distros. > it doesn’t show a shift away from NVIDIA It does, as confirmed by many users who choose AMD for their next upgrades. Their choice of Nvidia was due to better performing drivers in the past, which is a non existent difference these days. So they choose to drop Nvidia and get AMD because of much better Linux integration (from kernel to the whole graphics stack and DEs), which is a consequence of AMD drivers being open. > but over in the professional CG/VFX and AI/ML spaces, AMD is rarely touched Not from what I've heard. AMD is better for GPGPU due to real asynchronous compute which Nvidia lacks. If anything, AMD hardware is more compute oriented, and Nvidia one is more gaming oriented. AMD plan to address it with their next architecture (so called "super-SIMD"). But compute hardware support is already good there. You might refer to CUDA lock-in, and some higher end libraries for AI being CUDA only. That's surely a problem, but not with hardware itself. AMD are working on addressing that as well (ROCm project).
- mncharity 8y ago
  > In terms of sheer bang for your buck, Nvidia's cards have been on top for a while now https://www.phoronix.com/ https://www.phoronix.com/ has a recent benchmarking of absolute card performance[1], and sometimes does performance-per-dollar, as here[2] last year with OpenCL (reporting AMD's FLOPS as cheaper... when ROCm satisfices). I've found the site helpful when tracking bleeding-edge linux support for high-end graphics cards. [1] https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=radeon-vii-linux https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=radeon-v... [2] https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=nvidia-rtx2080ti-compute&num=8 https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=nvidia-r...
7e 8y ago
"the users still stick around and get angry because they made dumb, uninformed choices as a consumer and think it's our fault." If this is the attitude of Wayland developers, it goes a long way towards explaining Wayland's ten year road of non-adoption.
- throwaway2048 8y ago
  Here's to another 10 years of non adoption, if wayland means "we don't care about popular (even dominant) use cases, now piss off".
- nickpsecurity 8y ago
  The alternative is that the volunteers cave in to strangers who bought anti-FOSS hardware by making the volunteers' software much crummier over a long period of agonizing work. I think volunteers wanting clean FOSS being expected to do that shows a negative, selfish attitude plus lack of cooperation on the NVIDIA consumers making those demands, not the developers. To illustrate with my own example, I bought a Linux-compatible laptop when I wanted to run Linux on a desktop. That rewarded the seller for effort they put in, reused the FOSS work already performed, and required no demands to be made of volunteers. These things are a two-way street. So, I met them in the middle. Did it again getting a Thinkpad cuz I wanted to try BSD's later this year. Supported all of them. If trying to maximize adoption, you have to tolerate people's indifference and selfishness. They dont want to maximize sales for anti-FOSS company. So, they're telling that company's customers the issue, suggesting a switch, and having something waiting for AMD buyers.
  - xyzzy_plugh 8y ago
    You can't complain about adoption while taking a holier-than-thou stance towards users. Since when has FOSS meant that I _can't_ work with proprietary bits? As a user, this is my choice. If software is going to dictate where I spend my money, then I'm less inclined to adopt it. That's not freedom.
    - LukeShu 8y ago
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
GrayShade 8y ago
> I don't really know what the situation is for more noob-friendly DEs like GNOME, but on sway this tool is the i3-equivalent of push-button simplicity: On Gnome you can bind shortcuts to copy save to a file or copy to clipboard the whole screen, the current window, or a rectangular screen region. In the latter case, you can drag a rectangle with the mouse to choose the area you want to screenshot. There is a visual indication of the copied region (it blends a white rectangle over it), and the clipboard works with all applications (both Wayland and XWayland). For screen recording I've used Peek, which is pretty nice, too.

shittyadmin 8y ago

> As the actual person who receives these complaints... this isn't true. Once it's explained, though, the users still stick around and get angry because they made dumb, uninformed choices as a consumer and think it's our fault. In terms of sheer bang for your buck, Nvidia's cards have been on top for a while now (there's a good reason cryptocurrency miners have been using them), on Linux their proprietary drivers are the most stable in games - unless your only goal is to run Wayland, it's not exactly a "dumb, uninformed choice". This seems like a clear problem with Wayland developers mentality if they expect consumers to make purchasing decisions based on their platform alone.

Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
>In terms of sheer bang for your buck, Nvidia's cards have been on top for a while now But they have not been on top for a long enough period that cards bought when they were are generally supported by nouveau, and cards bought after should be AMD. On top of this, the reality is that most people don't need top of the line GPUs. Last year's GPUs will run next year's games at max specs. >Linux their proprietary drivers are the most stable in games were
- shittyadmin 8y ago
  > Last year's GPUs will run next year's games at max specs. If you want to run at 1080p@60hz perhaps, but many people now are going to 1440p, 2160p, 144hz or some combination there of which can easily strain even the latest GPUs.
  - Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
    I said max specs. I didn't stutter.
    - sitzkrieg 8y ago
      Nice argument
  - shmerl 8y ago
    You can get high end AMD cards for these, so it's not an issue if you want to use open drivers. Last year was a bit tight due to crytpocurrency mining rush (AMD GPUs were hard to buy, prices were crazy inflated and so on). This year should be better for gaming with open drivers, especially after Navi will come out.
    - shittyadmin 8y ago
      Last I heard AMD drivers, both proprietary and open have severe stability issues on Linux. Is that no longer the case?
      - shmerl 8y ago
        Not anymore for open drivers. Mesa developers had a lot of push to fix gaming related bugs. If you know some that are still broken, please open a bug on Mesa bug tracker and also list it here: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/wiki/Games_broken_on_Mesa https://www.gamingonlinux.com/wiki/Games_broken_on_Mesa This list is monitored by Mesa developers. These days AMD explicitly recommend using open drivers for gaming.
      - 8y ago
Iolaum 8y ago
It is an uninformed choice if you want to run wayland. That doesn't mean there aren't other factors at play. For example back when I was shopping for a laptop 2yrs ago, AMD GPU's weren't even available on most vendors. Even now linux vendors such as system76 and entroware don't ship amd cards on their laptops. CUDA dominating the Deep Learning space doesn't help either. That said my next hardware upgrade will definitely have an open source supported GPU or I m just not buying.
- anon1385 8y ago
  >It is an uninformed choice if you want to run wayland Creating a product that only works for people who already a) know about it and b) buy their hardware specifically to support it doesn't seem like a good strategy to achieve widespread adoption, which requires converting people who don't currently use or know about wayland.
  - vetinari 8y ago
    Nvidia goes out of their way not to play nice with Linux. It is no wonder, that Linux ecosystem will not accommodate their special requirements. When you are purchasing Nvidia, you are giving money to Nvidia. If you have problem with some software not working with a product your purchased, contact the people you gave money to for support.
vetinari 8y ago
Cryptocurrency miners preferred AMD cards, actually. And not the latest ones, but Polaris (4x0, 5x0), which provided the best efficiency wrt power, performance and price. It's gamers, that prefer Nvidia. Nvidia has better optimized driver stack, although they also sometimes play fast and loose.
- shittyadmin 8y ago
  Originally, yes, in recent years however that changed. Look at the cards used for ZCash, Monero, etc.
  - shmerl 8y ago
    Miners are increasingly moving to specialized ASICs anyway. Which is good for gamers who needs GPUs :)
- azinman2 8y ago
  Any anyone doing deep learning.
shmerl 8y ago
> on Linux their proprietary drivers are the most stable in games Not anymore, as long as you are using latest Mesa. Also, Nvidia usage on Linux is gradually dropping. See: https://www.gamingonlinux.com/index.php?module=statistics&view=trends https://www.gamingonlinux.com/index.php?module=statistics&vi... So I agree with position that compositor developers should not waste their time on supporting the blob. If Nvidia are so eager, let them contribute support, like they proposed for KWin.
- mroche 8y ago
  From the site: > This is currently in BETA. There are 8338 registered users on GamingOnLinux. These statistics are gathered using their manually entered data on their profiles. Please update your profile here to make this as accurate as possible. > As with any survey, this won't be 100% accurate and should be taken with a pinch of salt. 8K users on a site about gaming. Doesn’t include RHEL/CentOS in its distribution chart. Way too myopic of a sample to even declare NVIDIA usage on Linux is dropping. For all we know it could be that new users are signing up that don’t have NVIDIA hardware, it doesn’t show a shift away from NVIDIA. I know that your comment is about games, but over in the professional CG/VFX and AI/ML spaces, AMD is rarely touched. For both workstations and server racks.
  - shmerl 8y ago
    I was talking about gaming. RHEL/CentOS are server distros, not gaming oriented by any means. Fedora is more like it in such cases, if you prefer that family of distros. > it doesn’t show a shift away from NVIDIA It does, as confirmed by many users who choose AMD for their next upgrades. Their choice of Nvidia was due to better performing drivers in the past, which is a non existent difference these days. So they choose to drop Nvidia and get AMD because of much better Linux integration (from kernel to the whole graphics stack and DEs), which is a consequence of AMD drivers being open. > but over in the professional CG/VFX and AI/ML spaces, AMD is rarely touched Not from what I've heard. AMD is better for GPGPU due to real asynchronous compute which Nvidia lacks. If anything, AMD hardware is more compute oriented, and Nvidia one is more gaming oriented. AMD plan to address it with their next architecture (so called "super-SIMD"). But compute hardware support is already good there. You might refer to CUDA lock-in, and some higher end libraries for AI being CUDA only. That's surely a problem, but not with hardware itself. AMD are working on addressing that as well (ROCm project).
mncharity 8y ago
> In terms of sheer bang for your buck, Nvidia's cards have been on top for a while now https://www.phoronix.com/ https://www.phoronix.com/ has a recent benchmarking of absolute card performance[1], and sometimes does performance-per-dollar, as here[2] last year with OpenCL (reporting AMD's FLOPS as cheaper... when ROCm satisfices). I've found the site helpful when tracking bleeding-edge linux support for high-end graphics cards. [1] https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=radeon-vii-linux https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=radeon-v... [2] https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=nvidia-rtx2080ti-compute&num=8 https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=nvidia-r...

7e 8y ago

"the users still stick around and get angry because they made dumb, uninformed choices as a consumer and think it's our fault." If this is the attitude of Wayland developers, it goes a long way towards explaining Wayland's ten year road of non-adoption.

throwaway2048 8y ago
Here's to another 10 years of non adoption, if wayland means "we don't care about popular (even dominant) use cases, now piss off".
nickpsecurity 8y ago
The alternative is that the volunteers cave in to strangers who bought anti-FOSS hardware by making the volunteers' software much crummier over a long period of agonizing work. I think volunteers wanting clean FOSS being expected to do that shows a negative, selfish attitude plus lack of cooperation on the NVIDIA consumers making those demands, not the developers. To illustrate with my own example, I bought a Linux-compatible laptop when I wanted to run Linux on a desktop. That rewarded the seller for effort they put in, reused the FOSS work already performed, and required no demands to be made of volunteers. These things are a two-way street. So, I met them in the middle. Did it again getting a Thinkpad cuz I wanted to try BSD's later this year. Supported all of them. If trying to maximize adoption, you have to tolerate people's indifference and selfishness. They dont want to maximize sales for anti-FOSS company. So, they're telling that company's customers the issue, suggesting a switch, and having something waiting for AMD buyers.
- xyzzy_plugh 8y ago
  You can't complain about adoption while taking a holier-than-thou stance towards users. Since when has FOSS meant that I _can't_ work with proprietary bits? As a user, this is my choice. If software is going to dictate where I spend my money, then I'm less inclined to adopt it. That's not freedom.
  - LukeShu 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

GrayShade 8y ago

> I don't really know what the situation is for more noob-friendly DEs like GNOME, but on sway this tool is the i3-equivalent of push-button simplicity: On Gnome you can bind shortcuts to copy save to a file or copy to clipboard the whole screen, the current window, or a rectangular screen region. In the latter case, you can drag a rectangle with the mouse to choose the area you want to screenshot. There is a visual indication of the copied region (it blends a white rectangle over it), and the clipboard works with all applications (both Wayland and XWayland). For screen recording I've used Peek, which is pretty nice, too.