7 ms·

> Wayland doesn’t support Nvidia! There is a very high likelihood that when a user complains about Wayland support for Nvidia they mean this: * user already a

> Wayland doesn’t support Nvidia! There is a very high likelihood that when a user complains about Wayland support for Nvidia they mean this: * user already assumes Nvidia is a bad Linux actor * user knows Nvidia only supports buggy blobs * user may even know Nvidia is bad to people trying to unblob the blobs * user already went through the trouble of doing what it takes to get the bad Linux Nvidia blobs to work to play games on their machines * user notices that the bad buggy Linux Nvidia blobs fail to work at all with Wayland * user is understandably even more frustrated than they were before. So they ask you-- a Wayland person-- how can it be even worse for them now when they've already been generating much more complex and power-hungry graphics with their buggy blob than they'd ever do with Wayland. If you're representing Wayland, this problem is your problem whether you want it or not. Perhaps the answer is to make the protocol worse so the the Nvidia user doesn't remain eternally maximally frustrated. Perhaps the answer is that isn't possible and you're stuck in the same boat as the user. Perhaps it means you start a hunger strike or gather thousands of devs to protest outside Nvidia's headquarters until they improve. I have no idea. But please don't do that FLOSS thing where all the devs on a project teach each other to sync on, "Sorry Mario, but your princess is in another castle." That pattern becomes it's own problem and can quickly end up discouraging development even from potential devs who don't care at all about Nvidia support. > Wayland doesn’t support screenshots/capture! What is the current UX for screenshotting, screencapture, and screencapture with audio for the most featureful DE that uses Wayland atm? Is there a program out there that offers push-button access for these three features (choosing the most sensible default format in each case)?

ddevault 8y ago
>There is a very high likelihood that when a user complains about Wayland support for Nvidia they mean this As the actual person who receives these complaints... this isn't true. Once it's explained, though, the users still stick around and get angry because they made dumb, uninformed choices as a consumer and think it's our fault. >If you're representing Wayland, this problem is your problem whether you want it or not. It's not. We can just choose not to solve it. Use X and buy smarter when the next harware upgrade comes around, or wait until your hardware is supported by nouveau if you don't want to upgrade any time soon. >What is the current UX for screenshotting, screencapture, and screencapture with audio for the most featureful DE that uses Wayland atm? Is there a program out there that offers push-button access for these three features (choosing the most sensible default format in each case)? I don't really know what the situation is for more noob-friendly DEs like GNOME, but on sway this tool is the i3-equivalent of push-button simplicity: https://wayland.emersion.fr/grim/ https://wayland.emersion.fr/grim/ Push-button screen capture isn't there yet.
- shittyadmin 8y ago
  > As the actual person who receives these complaints... this isn't true. Once it's explained, though, the users still stick around and get angry because they made dumb, uninformed choices as a consumer and think it's our fault. In terms of sheer bang for your buck, Nvidia's cards have been on top for a while now (there's a good reason cryptocurrency miners have been using them), on Linux their proprietary drivers are the most stable in games - unless your only goal is to run Wayland, it's not exactly a "dumb, uninformed choice". This seems like a clear problem with Wayland developers mentality if they expect consumers to make purchasing decisions based on their platform alone.
  - Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
    >In terms of sheer bang for your buck, Nvidia's cards have been on top for a while now But they have not been on top for a long enough period that cards bought when they were are generally supported by nouveau, and cards bought after should be AMD. On top of this, the reality is that most people don't need top of the line GPUs. Last year's GPUs will run next year's games at max specs. >Linux their proprietary drivers are the most stable in games were
    - shittyadmin 8y ago
      > Last year's GPUs will run next year's games at max specs. If you want to run at 1080p@60hz perhaps, but many people now are going to 1440p, 2160p, 144hz or some combination there of which can easily strain even the latest GPUs.
      - Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
        I said max specs. I didn't stutter.
        sitzkrieg 8y ago
        Nice argument
Kalium 8y ago
> If you're representing Wayland, this problem is your problem whether you want it or not. You're absolutely, completely, 100% correct. In this scenario it is the Wayland developer's problem - wanted or otherwise - that the user is incredibly frustrated. Like most frustrated people, the user chooses to blame what seems like a reasonable target who coincidentally isn't them. Such as Wayland! This anger and frustration is something that Wayland devs unquestionably have to deal with. It's just perhaps possible that the choices made by NVidia driving this completely reasonable frustration might not be something Wayland devs have to own. Again, you're completely right. Unhappy users are going to blame Wayland devs. There just might be some room for subtlety.
- eschaton 8y ago
  It’s not just choices made by Nvidia, though, it’s equally due to choices made by Linux. Linux is trying to force its unique “all drivers are open source and in our tree” view of the world on everyone. Linux could stop doing this and start guaranteeing stable interfaces. If stable interfaces are available and Nvidia doesn’t use them, then it might be reasonable to call them “a bad actor.”
  - chousuke 8y ago
    That's disingenuous. Maintaining a stable driver API is far from free, and the project has done just fine without one since its inception. Nvidia is not playing by the rules, and there's an alternative vendor. Why spend extra effort just to help them? Assuming that a stable kernel API would just make things better ignores the potential downsides. I don't recall the name of the talk, but someone did comparative research into BSD kernel security and found that backwards compatibility was a significant source of bugs and that OpenBSD has benefited greatly from their aggressive removal of such code. There's no reason to doubt that this holds true for Linux as well
GrayShade 8y ago
> What is the current UX for screenshotting, screencapture, and screencapture with audio for the most featureful DE that uses Wayland atm? The Gnome UX is pretty nice, see my sibling comment.

ddevault 8y ago

>There is a very high likelihood that when a user complains about Wayland support for Nvidia they mean this As the actual person who receives these complaints... this isn't true. Once it's explained, though, the users still stick around and get angry because they made dumb, uninformed choices as a consumer and think it's our fault. >If you're representing Wayland, this problem is your problem whether you want it or not. It's not. We can just choose not to solve it. Use X and buy smarter when the next harware upgrade comes around, or wait until your hardware is supported by nouveau if you don't want to upgrade any time soon. >What is the current UX for screenshotting, screencapture, and screencapture with audio for the most featureful DE that uses Wayland atm? Is there a program out there that offers push-button access for these three features (choosing the most sensible default format in each case)? I don't really know what the situation is for more noob-friendly DEs like GNOME, but on sway this tool is the i3-equivalent of push-button simplicity: https://wayland.emersion.fr/grim/ https://wayland.emersion.fr/grim/ Push-button screen capture isn't there yet.

shittyadmin 8y ago
> As the actual person who receives these complaints... this isn't true. Once it's explained, though, the users still stick around and get angry because they made dumb, uninformed choices as a consumer and think it's our fault. In terms of sheer bang for your buck, Nvidia's cards have been on top for a while now (there's a good reason cryptocurrency miners have been using them), on Linux their proprietary drivers are the most stable in games - unless your only goal is to run Wayland, it's not exactly a "dumb, uninformed choice". This seems like a clear problem with Wayland developers mentality if they expect consumers to make purchasing decisions based on their platform alone.
- Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
  >In terms of sheer bang for your buck, Nvidia's cards have been on top for a while now But they have not been on top for a long enough period that cards bought when they were are generally supported by nouveau, and cards bought after should be AMD. On top of this, the reality is that most people don't need top of the line GPUs. Last year's GPUs will run next year's games at max specs. >Linux their proprietary drivers are the most stable in games were
  - shittyadmin 8y ago
    > Last year's GPUs will run next year's games at max specs. If you want to run at 1080p@60hz perhaps, but many people now are going to 1440p, 2160p, 144hz or some combination there of which can easily strain even the latest GPUs.
    - Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
      I said max specs. I didn't stutter.
      - sitzkrieg 8y ago
        Nice argument

Kalium 8y ago

> If you're representing Wayland, this problem is your problem whether you want it or not. You're absolutely, completely, 100% correct. In this scenario it is the Wayland developer's problem - wanted or otherwise - that the user is incredibly frustrated. Like most frustrated people, the user chooses to blame what seems like a reasonable target who coincidentally isn't them. Such as Wayland! This anger and frustration is something that Wayland devs unquestionably have to deal with. It's just perhaps possible that the choices made by NVidia driving this completely reasonable frustration might not be something Wayland devs have to own. Again, you're completely right. Unhappy users are going to blame Wayland devs. There just might be some room for subtlety.

eschaton 8y ago
It’s not just choices made by Nvidia, though, it’s equally due to choices made by Linux. Linux is trying to force its unique “all drivers are open source and in our tree” view of the world on everyone. Linux could stop doing this and start guaranteeing stable interfaces. If stable interfaces are available and Nvidia doesn’t use them, then it might be reasonable to call them “a bad actor.”
- chousuke 8y ago
  That's disingenuous. Maintaining a stable driver API is far from free, and the project has done just fine without one since its inception. Nvidia is not playing by the rules, and there's an alternative vendor. Why spend extra effort just to help them? Assuming that a stable kernel API would just make things better ignores the potential downsides. I don't recall the name of the talk, but someone did comparative research into BSD kernel security and found that backwards compatibility was a significant source of bugs and that OpenBSD has benefited greatly from their aggressive removal of such code. There's no reason to doubt that this holds true for Linux as well

GrayShade 8y ago

> What is the current UX for screenshotting, screencapture, and screencapture with audio for the most featureful DE that uses Wayland atm? The Gnome UX is pretty nice, see my sibling comment.