5 ms·

>Isn't this legally actionable fraud? Does it matter if it is? B2B lawsuits only get down to the actual law if the parties have a relatively equal amount of mo

by lovich 8y ago

>Isn't this legally actionable fraud? Does it matter if it is? B2B lawsuits only get down to the actual law if the parties have a relatively equal amount of money. A small or medium business going after google _after google has shut off their revenue_ is not going to ever win

gambiting 8y ago
Why not? If you take them to court over this they would have to at least send a representative and that costs money - in a case like this they would almost definitely tell the engineering team to fix this specific case. Especially since this is in the UK so if Google lost they would be liable for the process fees. Maybe even small claims court would be enough, and that's 100% not worth sending a lawyer for.
- noonespecial 8y ago
  I'm nowhere close to a lawyer and law is always a head-scratcher for me, but I'd hope that if that theory held even the slightest amount of legal water, a letter for your lawyer to their legal team might be enough to nudge them to fix your account and that'd be the end of it.
  - gambiting 8y ago
    That's basically how it works. It costs you very little(couple hundred £ at most) to ask a lawyer to craft a letter to send to Google legal team saying they have to resolve the issue for you within 14 days or you will be taking them to court. And if there's one thing that's absolutely certain is that Google's law team's time is way more expensive than whatever lawyer you found to write a letter or two is going to charge you . So yes, they can write back telling you to fuck off. But they will know that if you do file a case against them, they will have to send someone to court - and that's going to cost them a lot more than just fixing the stupid issue.
    - ben_jones 8y ago
      Or Google might realize acquiescing to every small legal request might become untenable and create a policy of only giving in to well-funded threats.
      - ThrustVectoring 8y ago
        That's why you buy a lawyer to craft the letter - so it looks indistinguishable from threats with actual funding behind it.
    - lovich 8y ago
      If your theory here was true, why does every small business who gets in this situation get stuck with no recourse when its just a few hundred to fix the problem? Yes, Google could likely not handle the legal costs if everyone went after them in court. Much like prosecutors in the US, what Google does is go hard on anyone who tries to defend themselves legally. At the point the calculus a small business has to make is if its worth it to try and get a remedy in court when Google will make sure to push back as hard as possible and likely destroy your business.
      - Arnt 8y ago
        Do you have some examples of Google doing that? (Honest question. I would remember it if I'd heard about that happening, but I might very well not hear about it in the first place.)
        pbhjpbhj 8y ago
        I'd expect Google to be devious enough to say "as a gesture of good will we'll pay your legal fees if you sign this NDA".
        justinclift 8y ago
        From a sister comment: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/aaron-greenspan/why-google-bothered-to-ap_b_213176.html https://www.huffingtonpost.com/aaron-greenspan/why-google-bo...
- falsedan 8y ago
  > small claims court would be enough, and that's 100% not worth sending a lawyer for. I think the UK is like the US, and you have to represent yourself in small claims (to avoid wasting the court’s time). A county judge would probably find in the claimant’s favour in 2 seconds if you sent a solicitor…
- solatic 8y ago
  Let's imagine for argument's sake that there's a developer account team inside Google which could pull the relevant machine levers and reinstate OP's account. OP has already talked to developer relations support managers who have proven to be unable to get the developer account team to comply. Why should a Google legal team be more successful than a developer relations support manager at getting the developer account team to comply, when Legal is almost certainly laterally farther away inside Google? Ultimately, in-house counsel at an org the size of Google is tasked with making the problem go away. It's easier to do that by burying the opposition in machine-generated paperwork than it is to convince people laterally far away in your org to comply. As a small business, you can't afford to pay for lawyers to deal with all the paperwork, so the bigger side (Google) always wins.
  - gambiting 8y ago
    You're correct if the case has any amount of complexity to it. This case does not. So unless they actually commit to it, the chances are very decent that the court will ask "yeah Google, why did you take this person's money and then closed their account? Unless you provide extremely compelling evidence for a good reason to close it, I'm going to order you to reopen that account". You can't bury a small claims court in paperwork - that's by design. And like others have suggested, if you write the letter in plain language, stating that they should at least look over your case again or it will be taken as bad will by the court, then the legal team might request that this information be provided by the engineering team - who will in turn say ok yeah, this is bollocks. Or they might not and he will lose. Either way, I would at least send a letter indicating such intention.
DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
we need more of the Max Schrems type in Tech. I wonder what a lawyer that moved into software / Tech or vice versa could achieve. I wouldn't underestimate the havoc "little men" can reach

by lovich 8y ago

gambiting 8y ago

Why not? If you take them to court over this they would have to at least send a representative and that costs money - in a case like this they would almost definitely tell the engineering team to fix this specific case. Especially since this is in the UK so if Google lost they would be liable for the process fees. Maybe even small claims court would be enough, and that's 100% not worth sending a lawyer for.

noonespecial 8y ago
I'm nowhere close to a lawyer and law is always a head-scratcher for me, but I'd hope that if that theory held even the slightest amount of legal water, a letter for your lawyer to their legal team might be enough to nudge them to fix your account and that'd be the end of it.
- gambiting 8y ago
  That's basically how it works. It costs you very little(couple hundred £ at most) to ask a lawyer to craft a letter to send to Google legal team saying they have to resolve the issue for you within 14 days or you will be taking them to court. And if there's one thing that's absolutely certain is that Google's law team's time is way more expensive than whatever lawyer you found to write a letter or two is going to charge you . So yes, they can write back telling you to fuck off. But they will know that if you do file a case against them, they will have to send someone to court - and that's going to cost them a lot more than just fixing the stupid issue.
  - ben_jones 8y ago
    Or Google might realize acquiescing to every small legal request might become untenable and create a policy of only giving in to well-funded threats.
    - ThrustVectoring 8y ago
      That's why you buy a lawyer to craft the letter - so it looks indistinguishable from threats with actual funding behind it.
  - lovich 8y ago
    If your theory here was true, why does every small business who gets in this situation get stuck with no recourse when its just a few hundred to fix the problem? Yes, Google could likely not handle the legal costs if everyone went after them in court. Much like prosecutors in the US, what Google does is go hard on anyone who tries to defend themselves legally. At the point the calculus a small business has to make is if its worth it to try and get a remedy in court when Google will make sure to push back as hard as possible and likely destroy your business.
    - Arnt 8y ago
      Do you have some examples of Google doing that? (Honest question. I would remember it if I'd heard about that happening, but I might very well not hear about it in the first place.)
      - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
        I'd expect Google to be devious enough to say "as a gesture of good will we'll pay your legal fees if you sign this NDA".
      - justinclift 8y ago
        From a sister comment: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/aaron-greenspan/why-google-bothered-to-ap_b_213176.html https://www.huffingtonpost.com/aaron-greenspan/why-google-bo...
falsedan 8y ago
> small claims court would be enough, and that's 100% not worth sending a lawyer for. I think the UK is like the US, and you have to represent yourself in small claims (to avoid wasting the court’s time). A county judge would probably find in the claimant’s favour in 2 seconds if you sent a solicitor…
solatic 8y ago
Let's imagine for argument's sake that there's a developer account team inside Google which could pull the relevant machine levers and reinstate OP's account. OP has already talked to developer relations support managers who have proven to be unable to get the developer account team to comply. Why should a Google legal team be more successful than a developer relations support manager at getting the developer account team to comply, when Legal is almost certainly laterally farther away inside Google? Ultimately, in-house counsel at an org the size of Google is tasked with making the problem go away. It's easier to do that by burying the opposition in machine-generated paperwork than it is to convince people laterally far away in your org to comply. As a small business, you can't afford to pay for lawyers to deal with all the paperwork, so the bigger side (Google) always wins.
- gambiting 8y ago
  You're correct if the case has any amount of complexity to it. This case does not. So unless they actually commit to it, the chances are very decent that the court will ask "yeah Google, why did you take this person's money and then closed their account? Unless you provide extremely compelling evidence for a good reason to close it, I'm going to order you to reopen that account". You can't bury a small claims court in paperwork - that's by design. And like others have suggested, if you write the letter in plain language, stating that they should at least look over your case again or it will be taken as bad will by the court, then the legal team might request that this information be provided by the engineering team - who will in turn say ok yeah, this is bollocks. Or they might not and he will lose. Either way, I would at least send a letter indicating such intention.

DyslexicAtheist 8y ago

we need more of the Max Schrems type in Tech. I wonder what a lawyer that moved into software / Tech or vice versa could achieve. I wouldn't underestimate the havoc "little men" can reach