4 ms·

Because you (customers in the US) cannot stop that practice without businesses pro-actively ending that practice en-masse. Some idealists have tried to run thei

Because you (customers in the US) cannot stop that practice without businesses pro-actively ending that practice en-masse. Some idealists have tried to run their business without tipping and paying a fair wage, but those initiatives tend to remain marginal (if they endure at all) because the average US customer dislikes paying the full (and naturally higher) price of a product or service up-front without the tip. Some countries don't do it at all (e.g., Japan), and in a lot of countries people tip only in a few cases — exceptional service that went above and beyond, or rounding up the bill in a restaurant after a good meal. For foreigners the practice of tipping to ensure an employee gets at least a living wage in the US is quite strange. Tipping is deeply cultural, you will be fighting against a phenomenon that is as American as apple pie (metaphorically speaking, it is Dutch in origin of course). Good luck in these days of ongoing identity wars. Do you know of any good ideas to actually make that shift away from tipping happen?

sofaofthedamned 8y ago
Yeah. I tried tipping a waiter in Japan, he was genuinely offended. Here in the UK I'll occasionally say keep the change to bar staff in my local but I'm an outlier and it's not expected. America crazy with their entire tipping culture.
rockinghigh 8y ago
The US and Canada are really the only countries with mandatory tipping. We should require businesses to display the final price, including all the fees like sales tax, health tax, and service. Uber has done it: you can leave a tip but you don’t have to.
- dwighttk 8y ago
  what definition are you using for mandatory?
  - Dylan16807 8y ago
    "Causes direct and meaningful financial harm to the worker if you don't do it."
    - GordonS 8y ago
      And social stigma for the non-tipper
Pharmakon 8y ago
Because you (customers in the US) cannot stop that practice without businesses pro-actively ending that practice en-masse. That’s the best argument for why regulation needs to exist that I’ve heard in a while. When the only way the public, and the employees can effect change is through the massed goodwill of the minority of beneficiaries of the status quo, it’s time to step in and regulate.
rlpb 8y ago
> Do you know of any good ideas to actually make that shift away from tipping happen? Change the law to make tipping a private transaction between the customer and the direct recipient, with no ability for an employer to be able to view or dip into it. Taxing it is no issue, but that should again be a private matter between wait staff and the IRS. If a customer wants the kitchen staff (or others) to receive a tip, then this must explicitly and freely be stated. The default should be that the direct recipient of the tip pockets the money. Leaving cash on the table should by law imply that the customer is leaving the money for the private benefit of the staff who directly waited on that table only. Minimum wage topups using tips, and similar, would then be (intentionally) impossible. Employers would have to pay minimum wage (in places where one is defined). Tipping would remain, but at least things wouldn't be quite as extreme as they are today. Of course this will never happen because restaurant owners have more political sway than wait staff.
- amanaplanacanal 8y ago
  In many states the tipped and non-tipped minimum wages are the same. Which is probably as it should be. I know in some restaurant workplaces tips are pooled and shared among staff, and this doesn't seem unreasonable as everybody knows what they are getting into.
bogomipz 8y ago
>"Because you (customers in the US) cannot stop that practice without businesses pro-actively ending that practice en-masse. Some idealists have tried to run their business without tipping and paying a fair wage, but those initiatives tend to remain marginal (if they endure at all) because the average US customer dislikes paying the full (and naturally higher) price of a product or service up-front without the tip." Danny Meyer, a very prominent restauranteur in the US eliminated tipping in favor of a "hospitality included" model. That was in 2015. It has endured since. His restaurants are among some of the best in NYC. He's stated repeatedly that customers are quite happy with it. See: https://www.wsj.com/articles/inside-danny-meyers-lonely-war-on-tips-1535169670 https://www.wsj.com/articles/inside-danny-meyers-lonely-war-... and https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenfeldman/2018/01/14/danny-meyer-on-eliminating-tipping-it-takes-a-year-to-get-the-math-right/#64b0e50a431f https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenfeldman/2018/01/14/danny-m...
- BoiledCabbage 8y ago
  Tons of restaurants in Seattle have eliminated tipping entirely and have a high wage for waitstaff.
mindslight 8y ago
It doesn't have to be a uniform change in expectation, sector by sector will do. I leave 20% routine at a restaurant when I am waited on, but mostly zero at a counter style place. To me, the latter is purchase based rather than service based, and I don't tip at retail stores either. If your tipping (or not) is in line with the legitimate expectation of the workers, then you're not stiffing them [0]. Which is why the discussion regarding tipping for online services is so important - this is when norms are being defined. The point of online commerce is that entire transaction is mediated by software, not that it simply sets up an open-ended appointment. For example we don't tip package delivery, even though they're damn hard workers (although I've certainly met them at the truck for heavy shit). What has happened here is that these companies have added tip boxes to the transaction flow because it's a form of price discrimination (based on guilt) and they're hoping to lower their own costs, either because tips will make up for offering lower wages, or as we've seen here because it allows them to put their hand into the till directly. The sensible thing to do is to mechanically put zero in any online tip box, because that box itself is an anti-feature. I hope that you then refrain from giving a cash tip, so that the expectations for online transactions remain simpler. I don't think we're at the place where these employees are reliant on tips (and these companies' practices seem to indicate so as well!), and if we're lucky it can remain that these companies have to fully compensate their workers rather than being able to stiff them and pass on the guilt. [0] Of course there's still the systematic inflation-treadmill race to the bottom based stiffing, but you personally are not.
craftyguy 8y ago
> Because you (customers in the US) cannot stop that practice without businesses pro-actively ending that practice en-masse. I can absolutely decide to not tip without businesses 'ending that practice en-masse'. You can too! In fact, anyone can!

sofaofthedamned 8y ago

Yeah. I tried tipping a waiter in Japan, he was genuinely offended. Here in the UK I'll occasionally say keep the change to bar staff in my local but I'm an outlier and it's not expected. America crazy with their entire tipping culture.

rockinghigh 8y ago

The US and Canada are really the only countries with mandatory tipping. We should require businesses to display the final price, including all the fees like sales tax, health tax, and service. Uber has done it: you can leave a tip but you don’t have to.

dwighttk 8y ago
what definition are you using for mandatory?
- Dylan16807 8y ago
  "Causes direct and meaningful financial harm to the worker if you don't do it."
  - GordonS 8y ago
    And social stigma for the non-tipper

Pharmakon 8y ago

Because you (customers in the US) cannot stop that practice without businesses pro-actively ending that practice en-masse. That’s the best argument for why regulation needs to exist that I’ve heard in a while. When the only way the public, and the employees can effect change is through the massed goodwill of the minority of beneficiaries of the status quo, it’s time to step in and regulate.

rlpb 8y ago

> Do you know of any good ideas to actually make that shift away from tipping happen? Change the law to make tipping a private transaction between the customer and the direct recipient, with no ability for an employer to be able to view or dip into it. Taxing it is no issue, but that should again be a private matter between wait staff and the IRS. If a customer wants the kitchen staff (or others) to receive a tip, then this must explicitly and freely be stated. The default should be that the direct recipient of the tip pockets the money. Leaving cash on the table should by law imply that the customer is leaving the money for the private benefit of the staff who directly waited on that table only. Minimum wage topups using tips, and similar, would then be (intentionally) impossible. Employers would have to pay minimum wage (in places where one is defined). Tipping would remain, but at least things wouldn't be quite as extreme as they are today. Of course this will never happen because restaurant owners have more political sway than wait staff.

amanaplanacanal 8y ago
In many states the tipped and non-tipped minimum wages are the same. Which is probably as it should be. I know in some restaurant workplaces tips are pooled and shared among staff, and this doesn't seem unreasonable as everybody knows what they are getting into.

bogomipz 8y ago

>"Because you (customers in the US) cannot stop that practice without businesses pro-actively ending that practice en-masse. Some idealists have tried to run their business without tipping and paying a fair wage, but those initiatives tend to remain marginal (if they endure at all) because the average US customer dislikes paying the full (and naturally higher) price of a product or service up-front without the tip." Danny Meyer, a very prominent restauranteur in the US eliminated tipping in favor of a "hospitality included" model. That was in 2015. It has endured since. His restaurants are among some of the best in NYC. He's stated repeatedly that customers are quite happy with it. See: https://www.wsj.com/articles/inside-danny-meyers-lonely-war-on-tips-1535169670 https://www.wsj.com/articles/inside-danny-meyers-lonely-war-... and https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenfeldman/2018/01/14/danny-meyer-on-eliminating-tipping-it-takes-a-year-to-get-the-math-right/#64b0e50a431f https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenfeldman/2018/01/14/danny-m...

BoiledCabbage 8y ago
Tons of restaurants in Seattle have eliminated tipping entirely and have a high wage for waitstaff.

mindslight 8y ago

It doesn't have to be a uniform change in expectation, sector by sector will do. I leave 20% routine at a restaurant when I am waited on, but mostly zero at a counter style place. To me, the latter is purchase based rather than service based, and I don't tip at retail stores either. If your tipping (or not) is in line with the legitimate expectation of the workers, then you're not stiffing them [0]. Which is why the discussion regarding tipping for online services is so important - this is when norms are being defined. The point of online commerce is that entire transaction is mediated by software, not that it simply sets up an open-ended appointment. For example we don't tip package delivery, even though they're damn hard workers (although I've certainly met them at the truck for heavy shit). What has happened here is that these companies have added tip boxes to the transaction flow because it's a form of price discrimination (based on guilt) and they're hoping to lower their own costs, either because tips will make up for offering lower wages, or as we've seen here because it allows them to put their hand into the till directly. The sensible thing to do is to mechanically put zero in any online tip box, because that box itself is an anti-feature. I hope that you then refrain from giving a cash tip, so that the expectations for online transactions remain simpler. I don't think we're at the place where these employees are reliant on tips (and these companies' practices seem to indicate so as well!), and if we're lucky it can remain that these companies have to fully compensate their workers rather than being able to stiff them and pass on the guilt. [0] Of course there's still the systematic inflation-treadmill race to the bottom based stiffing, but you personally are not.

craftyguy 8y ago

> Because you (customers in the US) cannot stop that practice without businesses pro-actively ending that practice en-masse. I can absolutely decide to not tip without businesses 'ending that practice en-masse'. You can too! In fact, anyone can!