6 ms·

Why are we still tipping at all? This relic of slavery[1] needs to be phased out, not reinforced. [1]. https://www.fordfoundation.org/ideas/equals-change-blog/

Why are we still tipping at all? This relic of slavery[1] needs to be phased out, not reinforced. [1]. https://www.fordfoundation.org/ideas/equals-change-blog/posts/american-tipping-is-rooted-in-slavery-and-it-still-hurts-workers-today/ https://www.fordfoundation.org/ideas/equals-change-blog/post...

pbreit 8y ago
As the article admits, tipping predated slavery by a long shot. People like to be able to tip if desired and many/most expect it to be incremental to wages.
- HarryHirsch 8y ago
  That's the American position. You'd like to ask recent immigrants about tipping, and you'd think that a substantial portion of them would like not to leave tips and would prefer that the employer pay their staff proper wages.
Eridrus 8y ago
Because we're in a Nash equilibrium where it isn't rational for any individual actor to change. Restaurants that incorporate the service fee into prices sell less food and particularly booze, leaving them with less money to pay the staff, leading to lower wages for front of house. Given this experience, tipped workers are generally against any legislation that might change the system.
- mikeash 8y ago
  I think tipping is a bit more interesting than that. It’s an equilibrium for the businesses and possibly for the workers, but often not for the customers. One of the strange things about tipping is they people usually still do it even when there’s no need to. It’s rational to tip at a neighborhood restaurant where they might remember you the next time around, but it’s conpletely irrational to tip for a one-off meal in a strange city or at an airport restaurant or whatever. Most of us tip anyway in those situations.
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > often not for the customers As someone who tends to tip well, I really don’t mind it. It’s a way to tangibly say “thank you” and “I appreciated your work.” (That said, tips should be above and beyond. Not required, and not included in minimum wages.)
    - Dylan16807 8y ago
      Do you actually tip all the people you're thankful to? Or even half of them? I definitely don't; most of them would look at me weirdly if I tried to tip them. So I think that's a tempting story of benevolence people tell themselves but it isn't actually the main reason for tipping.
    - niij 8y ago
      If they want a thank you note they can go volunteer in their free time IMO. I think employers should be paying their employee's wages, not relying on the public to directly pay their salary.
  - platz 8y ago
    Define "rational"
  - Eridrus 8y ago
    Not tipping makes people feel bad, so people often tip to keep their idea of themselves as a good person, not for a "rational" expectation of benefit.
- grogenaut 8y ago
  Restaurants in Seattle that are raising the minimum wage aren't telling me not to tip for the most part except Tom douglas. I'm capable of doing math... I'm tipping so I already am. Tho I realize most peipyare just straight confused by tipping ratios. And I as the patron shouldn't be figuring out your staff's w2. But also I know bartenders at a decent tipping bar (any with a good weekend business) make a lot more than $15-20 minimum wage. A Worked as a bouncer at one of the best bars in STL for tipping (high end late hours) and they'd make 95k+. Wasn't a job you could keep much past 40 unless you just didn't drink tho. As an aside Was one of my better non co-op college gigs, I worked security and valet, so I made 100-200$ tips a night and 10/hr (1995) as a valet bouncer and it was a 12 hour shift (4pm-4am).
  - Analemma_ 8y ago
    To be fair, “Tom Douglas” is like sixteen different restaurants around Seattle. A bunch of bars (Optimism) and non-restaurant food stores (Molly Moon’s) have gone tipless as well. I’m actually optimistic that Seattle is slowly but surely beating back the scourge of tipping.
    - grogenaut 8y ago
      Yeah my point is more that it's not transparent about the wage increases vs tips except at a few places. I'm fine with the way Tom does it. Just wish it would as mor consistent
  - Pfhreak 8y ago
    Molly Moons also tells you not to tip. There's a few places around town that are changing.
Freak_NL 8y ago
Because you (customers in the US) cannot stop that practice without businesses pro-actively ending that practice en-masse. Some idealists have tried to run their business without tipping and paying a fair wage, but those initiatives tend to remain marginal (if they endure at all) because the average US customer dislikes paying the full (and naturally higher) price of a product or service up-front without the tip. Some countries don't do it at all (e.g., Japan), and in a lot of countries people tip only in a few cases — exceptional service that went above and beyond, or rounding up the bill in a restaurant after a good meal. For foreigners the practice of tipping to ensure an employee gets at least a living wage in the US is quite strange. Tipping is deeply cultural, you will be fighting against a phenomenon that is as American as apple pie (metaphorically speaking, it is Dutch in origin of course). Good luck in these days of ongoing identity wars. Do you know of any good ideas to actually make that shift away from tipping happen?
- sofaofthedamned 8y ago
  Yeah. I tried tipping a waiter in Japan, he was genuinely offended. Here in the UK I'll occasionally say keep the change to bar staff in my local but I'm an outlier and it's not expected. America crazy with their entire tipping culture.
- rockinghigh 8y ago
  The US and Canada are really the only countries with mandatory tipping. We should require businesses to display the final price, including all the fees like sales tax, health tax, and service. Uber has done it: you can leave a tip but you don’t have to.
  - dwighttk 8y ago
    what definition are you using for mandatory?
    - Dylan16807 8y ago
      "Causes direct and meaningful financial harm to the worker if you don't do it."
samfisher83 8y ago
If you work at a nice restaurant you can make a lot of money with tips. Even at a nice sit down place (not super fancy) with food, appetizers, drinks etc you end up with 120 dollars a table of 4 or 5, a tip on that is 18-30 bucks. If you cover 4 tables in an hour that 72-120/hour. I don't know if you are going to get paid that on a non tip basis.
- berberous 8y ago
  Ive never worked in a restaurant, so I could be wrong, but I think most places pool tips. So you have to split that 72-120, with the line cooks, bus boys, etc.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - URSpider94 8y ago
    Yes and no. A typical setup at fine dining restaurants is a team of a front waiter (takes the orders, lists the specials) and a back waiter (brings the food, keeps drinks filled). Bussers clean and set the table between seatings. You’ll typically tip out the whole wait staff on an even basis, or the front waiter may keep a little more. Then you give something to the busser, but not an even share, and you probably also give something to the expediter, if there is one - the person who manages the window to the kitchen. It would be fairly uncommon to pass on tips to the kitchen. Also note, with a staff like this, you can serve more tables in an hour, maybe 6-7, so there’s more money to go around.
  - bluedino 8y ago
    I’ve only worked in restaurants that pool tips and the line cooks never got any
  - gamblor956 8y ago
    Despite doing most of the work necessary to make the restaurant function, line cooks are generally not included in tip pools. Worse, in same places they are even excluding from being part of tip pools despite not making much more than the waitstaff (on a pre-tip basis).
peterwwillis 8y ago
You're asking consumers to take an optional payment and make it mandatory. Even if they ended up paying the same amount, they'll prefer it be optional.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Spooky23 8y ago
Because it allows both employers and employees to evade taxes and enhance their bottom line.

pbreit 8y ago

As the article admits, tipping predated slavery by a long shot. People like to be able to tip if desired and many/most expect it to be incremental to wages.

HarryHirsch 8y ago
That's the American position. You'd like to ask recent immigrants about tipping, and you'd think that a substantial portion of them would like not to leave tips and would prefer that the employer pay their staff proper wages.

Eridrus 8y ago

Because we're in a Nash equilibrium where it isn't rational for any individual actor to change. Restaurants that incorporate the service fee into prices sell less food and particularly booze, leaving them with less money to pay the staff, leading to lower wages for front of house. Given this experience, tipped workers are generally against any legislation that might change the system.

mikeash 8y ago
I think tipping is a bit more interesting than that. It’s an equilibrium for the businesses and possibly for the workers, but often not for the customers. One of the strange things about tipping is they people usually still do it even when there’s no need to. It’s rational to tip at a neighborhood restaurant where they might remember you the next time around, but it’s conpletely irrational to tip for a one-off meal in a strange city or at an airport restaurant or whatever. Most of us tip anyway in those situations.
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > often not for the customers As someone who tends to tip well, I really don’t mind it. It’s a way to tangibly say “thank you” and “I appreciated your work.” (That said, tips should be above and beyond. Not required, and not included in minimum wages.)
  - Dylan16807 8y ago
    Do you actually tip all the people you're thankful to? Or even half of them? I definitely don't; most of them would look at me weirdly if I tried to tip them. So I think that's a tempting story of benevolence people tell themselves but it isn't actually the main reason for tipping.
  - niij 8y ago
    If they want a thank you note they can go volunteer in their free time IMO. I think employers should be paying their employee's wages, not relying on the public to directly pay their salary.
- platz 8y ago
  Define "rational"
- Eridrus 8y ago
  Not tipping makes people feel bad, so people often tip to keep their idea of themselves as a good person, not for a "rational" expectation of benefit.
grogenaut 8y ago
Restaurants in Seattle that are raising the minimum wage aren't telling me not to tip for the most part except Tom douglas. I'm capable of doing math... I'm tipping so I already am. Tho I realize most peipyare just straight confused by tipping ratios. And I as the patron shouldn't be figuring out your staff's w2. But also I know bartenders at a decent tipping bar (any with a good weekend business) make a lot more than $15-20 minimum wage. A Worked as a bouncer at one of the best bars in STL for tipping (high end late hours) and they'd make 95k+. Wasn't a job you could keep much past 40 unless you just didn't drink tho. As an aside Was one of my better non co-op college gigs, I worked security and valet, so I made 100-200$ tips a night and 10/hr (1995) as a valet bouncer and it was a 12 hour shift (4pm-4am).
- Analemma_ 8y ago
  To be fair, “Tom Douglas” is like sixteen different restaurants around Seattle. A bunch of bars (Optimism) and non-restaurant food stores (Molly Moon’s) have gone tipless as well. I’m actually optimistic that Seattle is slowly but surely beating back the scourge of tipping.
  - grogenaut 8y ago
    Yeah my point is more that it's not transparent about the wage increases vs tips except at a few places. I'm fine with the way Tom does it. Just wish it would as mor consistent
- Pfhreak 8y ago
  Molly Moons also tells you not to tip. There's a few places around town that are changing.

Freak_NL 8y ago

Because you (customers in the US) cannot stop that practice without businesses pro-actively ending that practice en-masse. Some idealists have tried to run their business without tipping and paying a fair wage, but those initiatives tend to remain marginal (if they endure at all) because the average US customer dislikes paying the full (and naturally higher) price of a product or service up-front without the tip. Some countries don't do it at all (e.g., Japan), and in a lot of countries people tip only in a few cases — exceptional service that went above and beyond, or rounding up the bill in a restaurant after a good meal. For foreigners the practice of tipping to ensure an employee gets at least a living wage in the US is quite strange. Tipping is deeply cultural, you will be fighting against a phenomenon that is as American as apple pie (metaphorically speaking, it is Dutch in origin of course). Good luck in these days of ongoing identity wars. Do you know of any good ideas to actually make that shift away from tipping happen?

sofaofthedamned 8y ago
Yeah. I tried tipping a waiter in Japan, he was genuinely offended. Here in the UK I'll occasionally say keep the change to bar staff in my local but I'm an outlier and it's not expected. America crazy with their entire tipping culture.
rockinghigh 8y ago
The US and Canada are really the only countries with mandatory tipping. We should require businesses to display the final price, including all the fees like sales tax, health tax, and service. Uber has done it: you can leave a tip but you don’t have to.
- dwighttk 8y ago
  what definition are you using for mandatory?
  - Dylan16807 8y ago
    "Causes direct and meaningful financial harm to the worker if you don't do it."

samfisher83 8y ago

If you work at a nice restaurant you can make a lot of money with tips. Even at a nice sit down place (not super fancy) with food, appetizers, drinks etc you end up with 120 dollars a table of 4 or 5, a tip on that is 18-30 bucks. If you cover 4 tables in an hour that 72-120/hour. I don't know if you are going to get paid that on a non tip basis.

berberous 8y ago
Ive never worked in a restaurant, so I could be wrong, but I think most places pool tips. So you have to split that 72-120, with the line cooks, bus boys, etc.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- URSpider94 8y ago
  Yes and no. A typical setup at fine dining restaurants is a team of a front waiter (takes the orders, lists the specials) and a back waiter (brings the food, keeps drinks filled). Bussers clean and set the table between seatings. You’ll typically tip out the whole wait staff on an even basis, or the front waiter may keep a little more. Then you give something to the busser, but not an even share, and you probably also give something to the expediter, if there is one - the person who manages the window to the kitchen. It would be fairly uncommon to pass on tips to the kitchen. Also note, with a staff like this, you can serve more tables in an hour, maybe 6-7, so there’s more money to go around.
- bluedino 8y ago
  I’ve only worked in restaurants that pool tips and the line cooks never got any
- gamblor956 8y ago
  Despite doing most of the work necessary to make the restaurant function, line cooks are generally not included in tip pools. Worse, in same places they are even excluding from being part of tip pools despite not making much more than the waitstaff (on a pre-tip basis).

peterwwillis 8y ago

You're asking consumers to take an optional payment and make it mandatory. Even if they ended up paying the same amount, they'll prefer it be optional.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Spooky23 8y ago

Because it allows both employers and employees to evade taxes and enhance their bottom line.