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I can't wait for tipping culture to end - it's just a way for service workers to be abused in a multitude of ways. I only wish more workers would realize that

I can't wait for tipping culture to end - it's just a way for service workers to be abused in a multitude of ways. I only wish more workers would realize that it will be better for them collectively to get upset at their employers for not paying them fairly instead of the last customer who stiffed them on the tip.

StudentStuff 8y ago
Tipping culture should die, and 7 states thus far have banned the mistreatment of servers via reducing their wage due to earned tips. Amazon knew this practice was against the spirit of the law in its home state, and it likely would result in penalties if Working Washington or similar chooses to take them to court over this fraudulent practice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_States#State_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_Stat...
- consp 8y ago
  I got sad by those numbers. Looking at them I wonder how the workers are able to live at all. What happened to the "tip is for good service" and the base being covered by the employer for services rendered (e.g. the bottom line of the company)?
  - jnty 8y ago
    There was a never a 'golden age' of tipping where everyone was getting paid fairly. Make no mistake, tipping was and is usually used as a way of justifying lower wages.
    - nicoburns 8y ago
      This is how tips work in virtually every country other than the US though. Tips are still a thing, but they're optional because minimum wage is the same for serving staff as it is for everyone else.
      - Dylan16807 8y ago
        > because minimum wage is the same That would help but still not be enough, with the US minimum wage.
      - jnty 8y ago
        They still have the effect of depressing wages with a component that is uncertain, volatile and liable to theft.
hamilyon2 8y ago
Larger wages will be put ultimately on consumer. Now you have two Amazon's. There is absolutely no difference between them. Goods are ten percent pricier in second one, but employees are paid more (they appreciate tips anyway). Which company would you buy from? Which company would you invest in?
- IanSanders 8y ago
  Which company should you buy from? Which company should you invest in? Everyone is responsible here. Problem is, more expensive doesn't necessarily translate to "more ethical".
  - dazc 8y ago
    Assuming there is an ethical choice available?
    - IanSanders 8y ago
      Exactly. I read @hamilyon2's comment that majority would not pick the ethical choice, my point was that even if "ethical consumption" becomes widespread enough, it would eventually get abused and end up not much more ethical in the end. Just like organic-labeled products which are not always more organic than non-organic ones.
- cjslep 8y ago
  And poverty level wages plus tips are also passed onto the consumer in the form of increased social welfare program costs, which require more taxes. An increase of taxes tends to have a disproportionately larger impact on those with less money to begin with. On the one hand you have society paying for this externality, and on the other you force employers to accurately reflect the market conditions and price that externality in.
  - acqq 8y ago
    > An increase of taxes tends to have a disproportionately larger impact on those with less money to begin with. Not generally, but probably common in the current political attitude of “reducing the taxes of the rich and taxing the poor.”
golergka 8y ago
Tipping serves a purpose. It's a clear, precise and immediate communication channel about customer satisfaction. If you get bad service, just don't leave a tip - it doesn't have any social friction of calling the manager or anything like that. You, as a customer, feel that you're in control. Why would you want to get rid of that?
- michaelt 8y ago
  If I give my delivery driver $5 and his employer drops his pay by $5 as if I'd tipped $0, the communication channel is muted. Maybe I'm deceived into thinking I'm rewarding good performance, but the truth is I'm a chump making a voluntary donation to some billionaire CEO's pay packet. Why would anyone volunteer to be taken for a fool like that?
  - golergka 8y ago
    I completely agree with you, but your point is not about tipping, it's about this particular scam. Why are you replying as if I'm defending it? There's no argument to be had about this.
    - Dylan16807 8y ago
      Have you considered what article you're posting on? Also tipping culture enables companies to do things like this.
      - darkpuma 8y ago
        Credit card culture enables this. When you tip with cash, you cut out the corporate middle man.
        Dylan16807 8y ago
        The same thing could happen with cash if the system was set up a little bit differently.
JoshTriplett 8y ago
> I can't wait for tipping culture to end - it's just a way for service workers to be abused in a multitude of ways. I agree that tips as a substitute for wages should end, and that expectations of non-zero baseline tips should end. However, I feel that tips as incentives for good service should absolutely continue. (Either that, or real-time rating systems visible to the employer, but I'm not sure that outcome would be preferable.)
- 2019ideas 8y ago
  Not tipping sounds great until you order food in Europe. That said, I've heard good things about Japan's food service, and they don't require tipping. EDIT spelling
  - chewbacha 8y ago
    Robots don’t work for money. Jk... somewhat. Robot served food is actually becoming a thing.
  - codyb 8y ago
    Not sure why you're being downvoted. Having spent 8 months in Europe in the last decade and the rest in the US, one of the first things I notice back home is how nice it is to get decent service at eating establishments.
  - hellweaver666 8y ago
    The service you get in the US isn't "good service" it's people kissing your ass because they can't afford not to. It's all fake. In Europe, you get seen when it's your turn and the staff work at a reasonable pace without killing themselves because they have a decent base pay. They don't degrade themselves for tips (I've seen this a lot with waitresses in the US flirting horribly with customers).
    - improbable22 8y ago
      Yes to this. There are also significant regional variations in how people interact. And it is more common to stand up & pay on the way out, which solves the frequent American complaint of having to wait forever for the check.
softawre 8y ago
You're not going to have servers who are making $20-30/hour get upset and demand they get paid a stable 12$/hour.

StudentStuff 8y ago

Tipping culture should die, and 7 states thus far have banned the mistreatment of servers via reducing their wage due to earned tips. Amazon knew this practice was against the spirit of the law in its home state, and it likely would result in penalties if Working Washington or similar chooses to take them to court over this fraudulent practice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_States#State_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_Stat...

consp 8y ago
I got sad by those numbers. Looking at them I wonder how the workers are able to live at all. What happened to the "tip is for good service" and the base being covered by the employer for services rendered (e.g. the bottom line of the company)?
- jnty 8y ago
  There was a never a 'golden age' of tipping where everyone was getting paid fairly. Make no mistake, tipping was and is usually used as a way of justifying lower wages.
  - nicoburns 8y ago
    This is how tips work in virtually every country other than the US though. Tips are still a thing, but they're optional because minimum wage is the same for serving staff as it is for everyone else.
    - Dylan16807 8y ago
      > because minimum wage is the same That would help but still not be enough, with the US minimum wage.
    - jnty 8y ago
      They still have the effect of depressing wages with a component that is uncertain, volatile and liable to theft.

hamilyon2 8y ago

Larger wages will be put ultimately on consumer. Now you have two Amazon's. There is absolutely no difference between them. Goods are ten percent pricier in second one, but employees are paid more (they appreciate tips anyway). Which company would you buy from? Which company would you invest in?

IanSanders 8y ago
Which company should you buy from? Which company should you invest in? Everyone is responsible here. Problem is, more expensive doesn't necessarily translate to "more ethical".
- dazc 8y ago
  Assuming there is an ethical choice available?
  - IanSanders 8y ago
    Exactly. I read @hamilyon2's comment that majority would not pick the ethical choice, my point was that even if "ethical consumption" becomes widespread enough, it would eventually get abused and end up not much more ethical in the end. Just like organic-labeled products which are not always more organic than non-organic ones.
cjslep 8y ago
And poverty level wages plus tips are also passed onto the consumer in the form of increased social welfare program costs, which require more taxes. An increase of taxes tends to have a disproportionately larger impact on those with less money to begin with. On the one hand you have society paying for this externality, and on the other you force employers to accurately reflect the market conditions and price that externality in.
- acqq 8y ago
  > An increase of taxes tends to have a disproportionately larger impact on those with less money to begin with. Not generally, but probably common in the current political attitude of “reducing the taxes of the rich and taxing the poor.”

golergka 8y ago

Tipping serves a purpose. It's a clear, precise and immediate communication channel about customer satisfaction. If you get bad service, just don't leave a tip - it doesn't have any social friction of calling the manager or anything like that. You, as a customer, feel that you're in control. Why would you want to get rid of that?

michaelt 8y ago
If I give my delivery driver $5 and his employer drops his pay by $5 as if I'd tipped $0, the communication channel is muted. Maybe I'm deceived into thinking I'm rewarding good performance, but the truth is I'm a chump making a voluntary donation to some billionaire CEO's pay packet. Why would anyone volunteer to be taken for a fool like that?
- golergka 8y ago
  I completely agree with you, but your point is not about tipping, it's about this particular scam. Why are you replying as if I'm defending it? There's no argument to be had about this.
  - Dylan16807 8y ago
    Have you considered what article you're posting on? Also tipping culture enables companies to do things like this.
    - darkpuma 8y ago
      Credit card culture enables this. When you tip with cash, you cut out the corporate middle man.
      - Dylan16807 8y ago
        The same thing could happen with cash if the system was set up a little bit differently.

JoshTriplett 8y ago

> I can't wait for tipping culture to end - it's just a way for service workers to be abused in a multitude of ways. I agree that tips as a substitute for wages should end, and that expectations of non-zero baseline tips should end. However, I feel that tips as incentives for good service should absolutely continue. (Either that, or real-time rating systems visible to the employer, but I'm not sure that outcome would be preferable.)

2019ideas 8y ago
Not tipping sounds great until you order food in Europe. That said, I've heard good things about Japan's food service, and they don't require tipping. EDIT spelling
- chewbacha 8y ago
  Robots don’t work for money. Jk... somewhat. Robot served food is actually becoming a thing.
- codyb 8y ago
  Not sure why you're being downvoted. Having spent 8 months in Europe in the last decade and the rest in the US, one of the first things I notice back home is how nice it is to get decent service at eating establishments.
- hellweaver666 8y ago
  The service you get in the US isn't "good service" it's people kissing your ass because they can't afford not to. It's all fake. In Europe, you get seen when it's your turn and the staff work at a reasonable pace without killing themselves because they have a decent base pay. They don't degrade themselves for tips (I've seen this a lot with waitresses in the US flirting horribly with customers).
  - improbable22 8y ago
    Yes to this. There are also significant regional variations in how people interact. And it is more common to stand up & pay on the way out, which solves the frequent American complaint of having to wait forever for the check.

softawre 8y ago

You're not going to have servers who are making $20-30/hour get upset and demand they get paid a stable 12$/hour.