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The promotion of STEM and demotion of humanities is deeply linked to the promotion of college generally, to the majority of people. Going back a generation or

The promotion of STEM and demotion of humanities is deeply linked to the promotion of college generally, to the majority of people. Going back a generation or two, most people didn't go to college. Most of those that did tended to be relatively wealthy, with better careers. Education proponents argues that education made people wealthy/successful. College was an investment, and the education paid for itself in later successes... Human capital theory. It turned out that lower-middle class kids who gave to college tend to make lower-middle adults. Earning potential increases somewhat, but nothing like human capital theory predicts. Re-thinking, it seems more that philosophy and history are/were upper class pursuits. They didn't make people wealthy. Wealthy people could afford it. It just does not make sense for most average people to study history. Its a luxury. STEM really means focus on employability. I agree that education is not just about jobs. But, the premise of "everyone go to college" policies is jobs. Hence the dissonance.

james_s_tayler 8y ago
I try to study it in my off hours. The more I do the more I think my goodness we can not afford not to study it. But then I wind up studying JavaScript because skills pay the bills.
- dorchadas 8y ago
  That's what I've come to discover about the humanities as a whole. I was very much a STEM Lord going into college, but my Uni required a lot of electives outside the major, to try to cross pollinate. I ended up enjoying those much more, and started to realize that we can't focus solely on STEM to the exclusion of them because, well, STEM can't solve or answer everything and we're forgetting the past, leaving it doomed to be repeated.
harimau777 8y ago
I agree with you that articles advocating for increased focus on the humanities often fail to consider that historically university education in the humanities was only pursued by the wealthy elite. At the same time however, when I read books written by relatively average people from the early 1900s I notice that there are often many allusions to classical era mythology and history. This could just be a difference in the focus of the humanities that people are learning (e.g. people in the past were educated in a relatively greater understanding of hellenistic culture while modern people are educated in a relatively greater understanding of non-western cultures). However, is it possible that in the past primary and secondary schools gave people a grounding in the humanities even if they never studied them at university?
- mikeash 8y ago
  Are there really books written by average people from the early 1900s?
  - livueta 8y ago
    Sure, assuming the definition of "average" we're using here is "not from a family with significant economic means", rather than "led an uninteresting life". One that immediately springs to mind as both relevant and a good read is You Can't Win[1], the autobiography of a jailbird who was primarily active in the American West around the turn of the century. (I read it after seeing it mentioned in a HN thread, as it happens). I can't recall specific examples as it's been a while, but the author received a grounding in history at a religious school as a kid that shows up throughout the work in the form of various allusions to history and mythology. --- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Can't_Win_(book) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Can't_Win_(book)
    - mikeash 8y ago
      I’d say the relevant criterion would be “had a typical education.” Seems like this guy would qualify, in any case. Thanks for the link.
  - harimau777 8y ago
    The ones that I've personally read were manuals written by old time boxers and strongmen.
  - sitkack 8y ago
    https://www.mhpbooks.com/books/the-right-way-to-do-wrong/ https://www.mhpbooks.com/books/the-right-way-to-do-wrong/ By Harry Houdini
AnimalMuppet 8y ago
That's why they were the "liberal" arts - they were studied by free people, as opposed to vocational things, which were studied by slaves. To extend that to today, if you need the money from a job, don't study the liberal arts. If you can afford to not work for a living, then the liberal arts are appropriate for you. Now, in a non-slave-based society, we think that all citizens should know something of the liberal arts (which I in fact support, and wish our education system was better at providing). But a degree? Only if you don't need the money.
sitkack 8y ago
STEM is getting pushed as early as Kindergarten. Even before STEM, grade schools were cutting recess, art, music and history. STEM legitimized this behavior and it is starting way before college. The high school education is so worthless, that college is mandatory. This is a scam. A high school education should be the equivalent of a 2 year degree from a community college. STEM is a votec scam and an excuse to excise the humanities from all levels of education.

james_s_tayler 8y ago

I try to study it in my off hours. The more I do the more I think my goodness we can not afford not to study it. But then I wind up studying JavaScript because skills pay the bills.

dorchadas 8y ago
That's what I've come to discover about the humanities as a whole. I was very much a STEM Lord going into college, but my Uni required a lot of electives outside the major, to try to cross pollinate. I ended up enjoying those much more, and started to realize that we can't focus solely on STEM to the exclusion of them because, well, STEM can't solve or answer everything and we're forgetting the past, leaving it doomed to be repeated.

harimau777 8y ago

I agree with you that articles advocating for increased focus on the humanities often fail to consider that historically university education in the humanities was only pursued by the wealthy elite. At the same time however, when I read books written by relatively average people from the early 1900s I notice that there are often many allusions to classical era mythology and history. This could just be a difference in the focus of the humanities that people are learning (e.g. people in the past were educated in a relatively greater understanding of hellenistic culture while modern people are educated in a relatively greater understanding of non-western cultures). However, is it possible that in the past primary and secondary schools gave people a grounding in the humanities even if they never studied them at university?

mikeash 8y ago
Are there really books written by average people from the early 1900s?
- livueta 8y ago
  Sure, assuming the definition of "average" we're using here is "not from a family with significant economic means", rather than "led an uninteresting life". One that immediately springs to mind as both relevant and a good read is You Can't Win[1], the autobiography of a jailbird who was primarily active in the American West around the turn of the century. (I read it after seeing it mentioned in a HN thread, as it happens). I can't recall specific examples as it's been a while, but the author received a grounding in history at a religious school as a kid that shows up throughout the work in the form of various allusions to history and mythology. --- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Can't_Win_(book) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_Can't_Win_(book)
  - mikeash 8y ago
    I’d say the relevant criterion would be “had a typical education.” Seems like this guy would qualify, in any case. Thanks for the link.
- harimau777 8y ago
  The ones that I've personally read were manuals written by old time boxers and strongmen.
- sitkack 8y ago
  https://www.mhpbooks.com/books/the-right-way-to-do-wrong/ https://www.mhpbooks.com/books/the-right-way-to-do-wrong/ By Harry Houdini

AnimalMuppet 8y ago

That's why they were the "liberal" arts - they were studied by free people, as opposed to vocational things, which were studied by slaves. To extend that to today, if you need the money from a job, don't study the liberal arts. If you can afford to not work for a living, then the liberal arts are appropriate for you. Now, in a non-slave-based society, we think that all citizens should know something of the liberal arts (which I in fact support, and wish our education system was better at providing). But a degree? Only if you don't need the money.

sitkack 8y ago

STEM is getting pushed as early as Kindergarten. Even before STEM, grade schools were cutting recess, art, music and history. STEM legitimized this behavior and it is starting way before college. The high school education is so worthless, that college is mandatory. This is a scam. A high school education should be the equivalent of a 2 year degree from a community college. STEM is a votec scam and an excuse to excise the humanities from all levels of education.