5 ms·

Y.A. Author Pulls Her Debut After Pre-Publication Accusations of Racism

36 points by luu 8y ago

int_19h 8y ago
This quote drew my attention: “This book is about slavery, a false oppression narrative that equates having legitimately dangerous magical powers that kill people with being an oppressed minority, like a person of color. This whole story is absolutely repulsive.” It immediately reminded me of Jemisin's "The Fifth Season", because that's pretty much the central plot device there: people with dangerous magical powers being discriminated against, out of fear, in ways that directly and obviously parallel racial discrimination of blacks in real world USA. Except that book won Hugo for best novel in 2016. So, what was actually so offensive about this book? I'm genuinely curious to see for myself now.
- msie 8y ago
  Also the plot device sounds like the mutants in the Marvel universe being discriminated against. I'm ok with ridiculous criticism, I hope that criticism is ridiculed as well.
- watwut 8y ago
  I dont think the fifth season parallels racial discrimination of blacks in real world USA. It is really not the same nor history of that is the same. Jemisin learned from slave stories imo in terms how of how people in that situation think and feel, but not in how the slavery system works nor in how it came to be.
  - Dylan16807 8y ago
    Does this book parallel that? Or are short-sighted readers assuming it does because it's the only way they understand the concept of slavery, despite many wildly different implementations throughout history?
    - watwut 8y ago
      No, my point is that it does not parallel that. Also, I think that people who say that did not read the book at all, but found slavery mentioned in book analysis and jumped to conclusion. Because you can easily read the book without thinking about slavery at all and much less American one. The word itself is used only few times. Also, in born abilities are not the only way to become a slave in that book. Guardians are slaves too.
      - Dylan16807 8y ago
        "this book" being Blood Heir, not The Fifth Season.
        watwut 8y ago
        Ah, ok. I have no idea. I reacted to "It immediately reminded me of Jemisin's "The Fifth Season", because that's pretty much the central plot device there: people with dangerous magical powers being discriminated against, out of fear, in ways that directly and obviously parallel racial discrimination of blacks in real world USA." in parent. The description that made him think of fifth season does not sounds like fifth season either. I did not read "Blood Heir" and don't know anything specific except seeing some tweets about about the issue. All those tweets were from people with strong agendas (both ways agendas but still not fully trustworthy in their analysis). Which is why I don't want to speculate on its content.
  - int_19h 8y ago
    So orogene/rogga didn't give you any obvious word associations? There's more if you look closely, though. Let me quote something straight from the second book in the series, "The Obelisk Gate": "Our position is thoroughly identified with the physical integrity of the Stillness — for the obvious interest of long-term survival. Maintenance of this land is peculiarly dependent upon seismic equilibrium, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the orogenic can establish such. A blow at their bondage is a blow at the very planet. We rule, therefore, that though they bear some resemblance to we of good and wholesome lineage, and though they must be managed with kind hand to the benefit of both bond and free, any degree of orogenic ability must be assumed to negate its corresponding personhood. They are rightfully to be held and regarded as an inferior and dependent species. — The Second Yumenescene Lore Council’s Declaration on the Rights of the Orogenically Afflicted" Recognize that wording? It's the Mississippi declaration of secession in the Civil War. Here's the original bit: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization." Of course orogenes are not the same as African Americans (they're not a race, for one!), and the situation in the books is different in many ways. Nevertheless, there are many intentional parallels and call-outs like that there.
    - watwut 8y ago
      I did interpreted it as insult made to sound like current insult. There are call outs as you say, but it is in no way parallel. More like she learned from history and mixed pars of it into the book. I think that she also learned from some former slave stories. The whole system of oppression in the book is completely different from chattel slavery. It is not even really race-based except to the extend where ability is inherited. The overall system resembles genocide more - there is some commonality with wwii too. American slavery had slaves permeated whole society, serving in households closely under whites. That is not like that at all in book and Jemisin knows that. American slaves where money, property. Not at all in book. American slavery did not had beautiful fulcrum. Not took away all the kids from parents. There are call outs, but in important defining things it is different and resembles also other historical events to the same degree. Jemisin took pieces of this and that and mixed it to something original.
cf141q5325 8y ago
>“This is one of the few ways that publishing has evolved into the 21st century, by having to listen to people’s immediate reaction to what they’re publishing,” she said. I find it extremely sad that this is broadly phrased as something positive. Just consider how many great works of literature were publicly dammed and published regardless only to be redeemed decades or centuries later. Setting a precedent, even just a moral one, that public outcry should be considered when deciding on publishing is absolutely horrible.
- LanceH 8y ago
  pre-emptive book burning
- jeffdavis 8y ago
  Let's say it's never redeemed, and it just ends up being a bad book. So what? People have bad ideas all the time. Are we incapable of dealing with bad ideas on an intellectual level any more? We should be analyzing the understand the flaws in the reasoning that lead to the bad idea. The antidote to bad ideas is reason, not silence.
- dominicr 8y ago
  I also think often the reaction isn't to the original source, often the reaction is to the reaction of others. Many people running around shouting "Fire!" without having even seen smoke.
msie 8y ago
Pretty sad. She's hardly the one who needs punishing.
avinium 8y ago
"Many publishers and authors now hire “sensitivity readers” who vet books and identify harmful stereotypes." Dystopia, thy name is political correctness.
- msie 8y ago
  Think of the children (especially in this case).
cpach 8y ago
Sounds like an interesting article, but I’m not sure it’s om-topic for HN. Any specific reason you submitted it, 'luu?
- kwhitefoot 8y ago
  Because at least some people on HN are interested in censorship? Some are interested in the mechanics of writing and publishing? From the FAQ: On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting.
- mastazi 8y ago
  HN Guidelines: > On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity. Source: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
sigi45 8y ago
Sounds okay to me. She was not forced to, she listens to other people and her deal is still on the table. Haven't read the book to be able to evaluate the issue any further.
- gus_massa 8y ago
  Don't worry. Now you will probably never be able to read the book to evaluate it. There are (at least) three types of censorship: 1) gubernamental censorship 2) mob censorship 3) self censorship For some reason, many people care only about #1. This looks like a #3, but it's very close to a #2, because if this book were published there may be a tweeter outrage asking the major bookstores to "spontaneously" decide to remove the book and also any past or future books of the author.
  - frenchy 8y ago
    Probably because #2 and (even moreso #3) are difficult to evaluate without a great deal more nuance. There's not much of a use case for #1 except (arguably) national security. I assume what you mean by #2 & #3 is when people collectively or individually say that an idea is not worth the paper it's printed on. In that case, there's a good lot of things that should, ideally, never see the light of day; except as examples of human folly. The anti-vaccine movement and chemtrail theories are examples of this. I don't know the details of this case at all, but I suspect it falls under the category of the author trying to communicate one thing, but most people understanding the book in a very different way, and the author not wanting to be mis-read.
aaron695 8y ago
Trying not to Just World it, but if she stuck to writing books and didn't go on about off topic things like Trump she might not have teamed up with the lynch mob, which does just that lynch's people.
fxfan 8y ago
Dang this is generating good discussion, mind unflagging?
- detaro 8y ago
  Send the mods an e-mail if you want to reach them.
close04 8y ago
Disclaimer: never heard of the book before today and will never read it (no longer in the Y segment of the YA audience). I'm basing my opinion on the info in the article and similar issues in the past. > racial stereotypes and careless borrowing from other cultural traditions It's time to accept we live in a world where you can't "win". Someone will be offended no matter what you do. First thing that popped in my head was if Dune would have still had a chance in today's world where each generation was raised with the increasing expectation that all opinions are equal and maybe their's is a little more equal. The quote above disqualifies 95% of Hollywood movies. Russian/Chinese hackers? Arab terrorists? Damsel in distress? "Genius, billionaire, playboy, philanthropist" guy with tall blonde assistant? Mutants with superpowers being discriminated against? I guess this backlash comes from people wanting to think they're changing society but don't bother picking their fights, they just join one that seems easy. > a false oppression narrative that equates having legitimately dangerous magical powers that kill people with being an oppressed minority Same person probably kept quiet when X-Men was pushing the narrative in order to protect their social media standing. The hypocrisy of going only after the "easy target" and for the wrong reasons undermines whatever point one might try to make.
newdayrising 8y ago
What I find interesting is the people that decry metaphorical book burning (censorship, banning) are the same ones that want to destroy authors and prevent their books from being published. It's like they think that if they can prevent a book from being published, they can't be counted among the Firemen - which IMO is rather bad logic.
- dariusj18 8y ago
  It's because they never read the book and assume that book burning is fascist and not democratic.

36 points by luu 8y ago

This quote drew my attention: “This book is about slavery, a false oppression narrative that equates having legitimately dangerous magical powers that kill people with being an oppressed minority, like a person of color. This whole story is absolutely repulsive.” It immediately reminded me of Jemisin's "The Fifth Season", because that's pretty much the central plot device there: people with dangerous magical powers being discriminated against, out of fear, in ways that directly and obviously parallel racial discrimination of blacks in real world USA. Except that book won Hugo for best novel in 2016. So, what was actually so offensive about this book? I'm genuinely curious to see for myself now.

msie 8y ago
Also the plot device sounds like the mutants in the Marvel universe being discriminated against. I'm ok with ridiculous criticism, I hope that criticism is ridiculed as well.
watwut 8y ago
I dont think the fifth season parallels racial discrimination of blacks in real world USA. It is really not the same nor history of that is the same. Jemisin learned from slave stories imo in terms how of how people in that situation think and feel, but not in how the slavery system works nor in how it came to be.
- Dylan16807 8y ago
  Does this book parallel that? Or are short-sighted readers assuming it does because it's the only way they understand the concept of slavery, despite many wildly different implementations throughout history?
  - watwut 8y ago
    No, my point is that it does not parallel that. Also, I think that people who say that did not read the book at all, but found slavery mentioned in book analysis and jumped to conclusion. Because you can easily read the book without thinking about slavery at all and much less American one. The word itself is used only few times. Also, in born abilities are not the only way to become a slave in that book. Guardians are slaves too.
    - Dylan16807 8y ago
      "this book" being Blood Heir, not The Fifth Season.
      - watwut 8y ago
        Ah, ok. I have no idea. I reacted to "It immediately reminded me of Jemisin's "The Fifth Season", because that's pretty much the central plot device there: people with dangerous magical powers being discriminated against, out of fear, in ways that directly and obviously parallel racial discrimination of blacks in real world USA." in parent. The description that made him think of fifth season does not sounds like fifth season either. I did not read "Blood Heir" and don't know anything specific except seeing some tweets about about the issue. All those tweets were from people with strong agendas (both ways agendas but still not fully trustworthy in their analysis). Which is why I don't want to speculate on its content.
- int_19h 8y ago
  So orogene/rogga didn't give you any obvious word associations? There's more if you look closely, though. Let me quote something straight from the second book in the series, "The Obelisk Gate": "Our position is thoroughly identified with the physical integrity of the Stillness — for the obvious interest of long-term survival. Maintenance of this land is peculiarly dependent upon seismic equilibrium, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the orogenic can establish such. A blow at their bondage is a blow at the very planet. We rule, therefore, that though they bear some resemblance to we of good and wholesome lineage, and though they must be managed with kind hand to the benefit of both bond and free, any degree of orogenic ability must be assumed to negate its corresponding personhood. They are rightfully to be held and regarded as an inferior and dependent species. — The Second Yumenescene Lore Council’s Declaration on the Rights of the Orogenically Afflicted" Recognize that wording? It's the Mississippi declaration of secession in the Civil War. Here's the original bit: "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery - the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization." Of course orogenes are not the same as African Americans (they're not a race, for one!), and the situation in the books is different in many ways. Nevertheless, there are many intentional parallels and call-outs like that there.
  - watwut 8y ago
    I did interpreted it as insult made to sound like current insult. There are call outs as you say, but it is in no way parallel. More like she learned from history and mixed pars of it into the book. I think that she also learned from some former slave stories. The whole system of oppression in the book is completely different from chattel slavery. It is not even really race-based except to the extend where ability is inherited. The overall system resembles genocide more - there is some commonality with wwii too. American slavery had slaves permeated whole society, serving in households closely under whites. That is not like that at all in book and Jemisin knows that. American slaves where money, property. Not at all in book. American slavery did not had beautiful fulcrum. Not took away all the kids from parents. There are call outs, but in important defining things it is different and resembles also other historical events to the same degree. Jemisin took pieces of this and that and mixed it to something original.

cf141q5325 8y ago

>“This is one of the few ways that publishing has evolved into the 21st century, by having to listen to people’s immediate reaction to what they’re publishing,” she said. I find it extremely sad that this is broadly phrased as something positive. Just consider how many great works of literature were publicly dammed and published regardless only to be redeemed decades or centuries later. Setting a precedent, even just a moral one, that public outcry should be considered when deciding on publishing is absolutely horrible.

LanceH 8y ago
pre-emptive book burning
jeffdavis 8y ago
Let's say it's never redeemed, and it just ends up being a bad book. So what? People have bad ideas all the time. Are we incapable of dealing with bad ideas on an intellectual level any more? We should be analyzing the understand the flaws in the reasoning that lead to the bad idea. The antidote to bad ideas is reason, not silence.
dominicr 8y ago
I also think often the reaction isn't to the original source, often the reaction is to the reaction of others. Many people running around shouting "Fire!" without having even seen smoke.

msie 8y ago

Pretty sad. She's hardly the one who needs punishing.

avinium 8y ago

"Many publishers and authors now hire “sensitivity readers” who vet books and identify harmful stereotypes." Dystopia, thy name is political correctness.

msie 8y ago
Think of the children (especially in this case).

cpach 8y ago

Sounds like an interesting article, but I’m not sure it’s om-topic for HN. Any specific reason you submitted it, 'luu?

kwhitefoot 8y ago
Because at least some people on HN are interested in censorship? Some are interested in the mechanics of writing and publishing? From the FAQ: On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting.
mastazi 8y ago
HN Guidelines: > On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity. Source: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

sigi45 8y ago

Sounds okay to me. She was not forced to, she listens to other people and her deal is still on the table. Haven't read the book to be able to evaluate the issue any further.

gus_massa 8y ago
Don't worry. Now you will probably never be able to read the book to evaluate it. There are (at least) three types of censorship: 1) gubernamental censorship 2) mob censorship 3) self censorship For some reason, many people care only about #1. This looks like a #3, but it's very close to a #2, because if this book were published there may be a tweeter outrage asking the major bookstores to "spontaneously" decide to remove the book and also any past or future books of the author.
- frenchy 8y ago
  Probably because #2 and (even moreso #3) are difficult to evaluate without a great deal more nuance. There's not much of a use case for #1 except (arguably) national security. I assume what you mean by #2 & #3 is when people collectively or individually say that an idea is not worth the paper it's printed on. In that case, there's a good lot of things that should, ideally, never see the light of day; except as examples of human folly. The anti-vaccine movement and chemtrail theories are examples of this. I don't know the details of this case at all, but I suspect it falls under the category of the author trying to communicate one thing, but most people understanding the book in a very different way, and the author not wanting to be mis-read.

aaron695 8y ago

Trying not to Just World it, but if she stuck to writing books and didn't go on about off topic things like Trump she might not have teamed up with the lynch mob, which does just that lynch's people.

fxfan 8y ago

Dang this is generating good discussion, mind unflagging?

detaro 8y ago
Send the mods an e-mail if you want to reach them.

close04 8y ago

Disclaimer: never heard of the book before today and will never read it (no longer in the Y segment of the YA audience). I'm basing my opinion on the info in the article and similar issues in the past. > racial stereotypes and careless borrowing from other cultural traditions It's time to accept we live in a world where you can't "win". Someone will be offended no matter what you do. First thing that popped in my head was if Dune would have still had a chance in today's world where each generation was raised with the increasing expectation that all opinions are equal and maybe their's is a little more equal. The quote above disqualifies 95% of Hollywood movies. Russian/Chinese hackers? Arab terrorists? Damsel in distress? "Genius, billionaire, playboy, philanthropist" guy with tall blonde assistant? Mutants with superpowers being discriminated against? I guess this backlash comes from people wanting to think they're changing society but don't bother picking their fights, they just join one that seems easy. > a false oppression narrative that equates having legitimately dangerous magical powers that kill people with being an oppressed minority Same person probably kept quiet when X-Men was pushing the narrative in order to protect their social media standing. The hypocrisy of going only after the "easy target" and for the wrong reasons undermines whatever point one might try to make.

newdayrising 8y ago

What I find interesting is the people that decry metaphorical book burning (censorship, banning) are the same ones that want to destroy authors and prevent their books from being published. It's like they think that if they can prevent a book from being published, they can't be counted among the Firemen - which IMO is rather bad logic.

dariusj18 8y ago
It's because they never read the book and assume that book burning is fascist and not democratic.