5 ms·

Agreed. The average human is illogical. It's not easy for Vulcans to live among Ferengies. I don't claim to be "mostly right", but I do claim to use and be able

by tabtab 8y ago

Agreed. The average human is illogical. It's not easy for Vulcans to live among Ferengies. I don't claim to be "mostly right", but I do claim to use and be able to produce a logical train of thought for recommending courses of actions. I can write it out in detail if and when requested. However, few are really interested in a logical justification: they usually use office politics and their "gut" to decide. Sorry, but most guts are not very bright nor accurate in my experience. I've decided it's best to join them instead of fight them because humans are social animals above all else. But, it's not easy to transition at all. I think I was born on the wrong planet.

magduf 8y ago
If you live around people who resemble Ferengi (that's the proper plural form), then maybe you should look at relocating to a different country where the people don't share the attitudes of the Ferengi.
- mjevans 8y ago
  Tell me, when can we begin construction of a new utopia in international waters with emigration and citizenship requirements that are angled at attracting Vulcan-like types? What are your plans for getting world nations to recognize the sovereign authority of such a region and for being economically healthy over the long term? I've never run the numbers, but pre-napkin estimation makes me believe such ventures are too risky, expensive, and rife for scams from 'Ferengi' to be worth exploring.
  - magduf 8y ago
    What are you talking about? There's plenty of countries where highly-skilled tech professionals can easily emigrate to.
  - throwaway920 8y ago
    I have many friends in my current or other FAANG companies in Europe and most of them got offers to relocate in US. Believe me or not, a tiny percentage accepted despite the big increase in salary because they don't want in a Ferengi society. Perhaps my social circle is biased.
  - tabtab 8y ago
    Being a Vulcan type won't necessarily make you wealthy. Most commerce is based on the art of selling, not the art of logic. In other words, tricking people. The best products from a technical standpoint often fail in the market. Better and cheaper GUI's than MS-Windows existed in the 80's, but MS's marketing muscle steam-rolled them. If you are talking about "smarts" in terms of inventing new things in the lab, as I mentioned earlier, being right or smart and being logical are not necessarily the same thing. In my book, being logical is being able to produce a clear line of reasoning for a suggested course of action. The "givens" in the "proof" may be wrong, but at least the proof is correct using the stated givens. The debate should then be on the givens, not on the proof logic. For example, my suggested UI designs often make assumptions about what confuses end-users. I often don't have inspectable studies to justify such, and others are welcome to disagree with human UI interaction psychology. But at least my assumptions are clear, and I make a decent attempt to explain the steps user may take or think in based on my experience, such as inconsistencies between screens, or variances from other common products an org uses.
albertgoeswoof 8y ago
You think others are being illogical when they make decisions that don’t appear logical to you. However a more logical conclusion is that others are acting in a logical way and you lack all the information they have about the decision.
- tabtab 8y ago
  That may or may not be true, but I cannot tell because they don't tell me: they just do, and often get it wrong by my observation. It often turns out they over-focus on a few narrow pet factors. Good decisions require being curious: what are others' opinions on this, and if they are wrong, why are their opinions wrong? It takes debate to get to the bottom of thinking.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
sjjshzvuiajhz 8y ago
People are constantly constructing internal narratives to explain their actions. From the perspective of the narrator, with a life’s worth of context, those actions fit into the narrative in a perfectly logical way. From the perspective of others who lack that context, those actions can seem illogical. Maybe you really are more logical than the people around you, but on the other hand you can’t read minds - maybe you can’t simulate the brains of the people you meet with sufficient accuracy to reconstruct their internal logic.
- tabtab 8y ago
  I'm willing to share my reasoning and logic with anybody who asks, and will refine it if it lacks clarity. I enjoy having my logic tuned by other minds; it makes me even MORE logical to be challenged, even if it hurts my pride in the short-term. Others are not so open and don't want their thinking process challenged. I don't know why, other than pride, ego, or office politics. If you know why, please tell me. Don't be shy: share it, people!
  - sjjshzvuiajhz 8y ago
    We’ve never met, but from what you’ve said in this thread, it sounds like you have a low opinion of the people around you. You’re good at finding flaws. That’s a valuable skill, but when you direct that fault-finding toward other people, they will become defensive. It’s rarely productive to ask someone that was wrong, why did you do that? You may have steel skin, but for most people, that feels like an attack. The person you’re questioning can perceive in your body language and tone of voice the “he’s just another illogical idiot” thought that’s running through your mind. The basic instinct when faced with an attack is fight or flight. Productive adult humans have usually learned that diffusing conflict by disengaging works better than fighting back. This means that you are unlikely to get the answer that you are looking for. This doesn’t mean you can’t question people and find out why they do what they do! The importing thing is to be nice about it. Don’t think: I wonder if this illogical idiot can come up with an explanation for his bullshit? Think: It seems like this thing X Bob made contributed to a problem with thing Y and that’s making me angry at Bob - but I bet Bob thought a lot about thing X when he made it, but he didn’t think about thing Y, and now he knows thing Y is broken and he feels guilty about it. Why don’t I ask him about what he likes about working on X so I can appreciate the good ideas he had, and maybe tell him a little about what I like about how Y works so he knows not to break it next time. Communication is hard. It requires two brains that are full of different memories and habits to sync with one another. You really have to want to understand the other person. I’d go further and say you need to care about them, and know what they care about, for your interactions with them to make sense and be satisfying for the both of you. I’ve found that intentionally caring about the people around me improves my relationships with those people and makes life more enjoyable.
tunap 8y ago
Fellow martian here. You may get some satisfaction from reading Khaneman's "Thinking Fast & Slow". Most everyone is BSing themselves. As to the 'why?', Sagan's "Demon Haunted World" lays it out pretty succinctly. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World

by tabtab 8y ago

magduf 8y ago

If you live around people who resemble Ferengi (that's the proper plural form), then maybe you should look at relocating to a different country where the people don't share the attitudes of the Ferengi.

mjevans 8y ago
Tell me, when can we begin construction of a new utopia in international waters with emigration and citizenship requirements that are angled at attracting Vulcan-like types? What are your plans for getting world nations to recognize the sovereign authority of such a region and for being economically healthy over the long term? I've never run the numbers, but pre-napkin estimation makes me believe such ventures are too risky, expensive, and rife for scams from 'Ferengi' to be worth exploring.
- magduf 8y ago
  What are you talking about? There's plenty of countries where highly-skilled tech professionals can easily emigrate to.
- throwaway920 8y ago
  I have many friends in my current or other FAANG companies in Europe and most of them got offers to relocate in US. Believe me or not, a tiny percentage accepted despite the big increase in salary because they don't want in a Ferengi society. Perhaps my social circle is biased.
- tabtab 8y ago
  Being a Vulcan type won't necessarily make you wealthy. Most commerce is based on the art of selling, not the art of logic. In other words, tricking people. The best products from a technical standpoint often fail in the market. Better and cheaper GUI's than MS-Windows existed in the 80's, but MS's marketing muscle steam-rolled them. If you are talking about "smarts" in terms of inventing new things in the lab, as I mentioned earlier, being right or smart and being logical are not necessarily the same thing. In my book, being logical is being able to produce a clear line of reasoning for a suggested course of action. The "givens" in the "proof" may be wrong, but at least the proof is correct using the stated givens. The debate should then be on the givens, not on the proof logic. For example, my suggested UI designs often make assumptions about what confuses end-users. I often don't have inspectable studies to justify such, and others are welcome to disagree with human UI interaction psychology. But at least my assumptions are clear, and I make a decent attempt to explain the steps user may take or think in based on my experience, such as inconsistencies between screens, or variances from other common products an org uses.

albertgoeswoof 8y ago

You think others are being illogical when they make decisions that don’t appear logical to you. However a more logical conclusion is that others are acting in a logical way and you lack all the information they have about the decision.

tabtab 8y ago
That may or may not be true, but I cannot tell because they don't tell me: they just do, and often get it wrong by my observation. It often turns out they over-focus on a few narrow pet factors. Good decisions require being curious: what are others' opinions on this, and if they are wrong, why are their opinions wrong? It takes debate to get to the bottom of thinking.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

sjjshzvuiajhz 8y ago

People are constantly constructing internal narratives to explain their actions. From the perspective of the narrator, with a life’s worth of context, those actions fit into the narrative in a perfectly logical way. From the perspective of others who lack that context, those actions can seem illogical. Maybe you really are more logical than the people around you, but on the other hand you can’t read minds - maybe you can’t simulate the brains of the people you meet with sufficient accuracy to reconstruct their internal logic.

tabtab 8y ago
I'm willing to share my reasoning and logic with anybody who asks, and will refine it if it lacks clarity. I enjoy having my logic tuned by other minds; it makes me even MORE logical to be challenged, even if it hurts my pride in the short-term. Others are not so open and don't want their thinking process challenged. I don't know why, other than pride, ego, or office politics. If you know why, please tell me. Don't be shy: share it, people!
- sjjshzvuiajhz 8y ago
  We’ve never met, but from what you’ve said in this thread, it sounds like you have a low opinion of the people around you. You’re good at finding flaws. That’s a valuable skill, but when you direct that fault-finding toward other people, they will become defensive. It’s rarely productive to ask someone that was wrong, why did you do that? You may have steel skin, but for most people, that feels like an attack. The person you’re questioning can perceive in your body language and tone of voice the “he’s just another illogical idiot” thought that’s running through your mind. The basic instinct when faced with an attack is fight or flight. Productive adult humans have usually learned that diffusing conflict by disengaging works better than fighting back. This means that you are unlikely to get the answer that you are looking for. This doesn’t mean you can’t question people and find out why they do what they do! The importing thing is to be nice about it. Don’t think: I wonder if this illogical idiot can come up with an explanation for his bullshit? Think: It seems like this thing X Bob made contributed to a problem with thing Y and that’s making me angry at Bob - but I bet Bob thought a lot about thing X when he made it, but he didn’t think about thing Y, and now he knows thing Y is broken and he feels guilty about it. Why don’t I ask him about what he likes about working on X so I can appreciate the good ideas he had, and maybe tell him a little about what I like about how Y works so he knows not to break it next time. Communication is hard. It requires two brains that are full of different memories and habits to sync with one another. You really have to want to understand the other person. I’d go further and say you need to care about them, and know what they care about, for your interactions with them to make sense and be satisfying for the both of you. I’ve found that intentionally caring about the people around me improves my relationships with those people and makes life more enjoyable.

tunap 8y ago

Fellow martian here. You may get some satisfaction from reading Khaneman's "Thinking Fast & Slow". Most everyone is BSing themselves. As to the 'why?', Sagan's "Demon Haunted World" lays it out pretty succinctly. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Demon-Haunted_World