12 ms·

Cheap Chinese electric cars are coming to the US and Europe

291 points by prostoalex 8y ago

DeonPenny 8y ago
I would guess these work better in china which is a more dense country without the driving culture the US at least has. A car that goes 28mph with a limited range is basically a scooter.
- akshatrathi 8y ago
  With a 450 kg load capacity, but yes.
- Scarblac 8y ago
  Exactly, this is something to use within a single city it seems. In the Netherlands, people use their bicycle for that.
- v_lisivka 8y ago
  I saw electrical cargo tricycles in use at local resort. They are quiet and cheap (about $2k). IMHO, they are ideal for resorts. https://www.google.com/search?q=hercules+tricycle+electric https://www.google.com/search?q=hercules+tricycle+electric
buboard 8y ago
these seem great to replace scooters in european cities.
jaclaz 8y ago
These will go (in Europe) in the same range of so-called tiny-cars (quadricycles), discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18061897 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18061897
maybeiambatman 8y ago
I'd happily buy one for city commutes when they become available.
fxfan 8y ago
Not if Trump deems the talks with China to have failed and levies tax. I've watched too many liveleaks to be able to sit in anything China made
- swarnie_ 8y ago
  Can't see Trumps opinion holding much weight in Europe to be honest.
  - subjectHarold 8y ago
    Didn't you know that French protesters have been chanting "We want Trump"?
  - bluGill 8y ago
    Probably, but I live in the US so like it or not they hold weight to me.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
howard941 8y ago
I'd prefer something like this for my in-city commute over the already-allowed golf cart, but not at that price point.
- oblio 8y ago
  > but not at that price point Are they too expensive?
  - monochromatic 8y ago
    $9000 seems like a lot for something so limited.
    - akshatrathi 8y ago
      Yeah, I'd like to buy them at the price they sell it in China: $2,500.
      - yellowapple 8y ago
        I suspect the price difference is due to different standards of "road-worthiness" in China v. the US.
  - blacksmith_tb 8y ago
    Seems like it, you could pick up a used Nissan Leaf coming off a lease for ~$7K USD, which is more comfortable and I have to imagine a lot safer. The Pickman might make an interesting delivery vehicle in cities, though.
  - howard941 8y ago
    In a relative sense, for me, yes. Small value for more than the price of a beaten-up Fiat 500.
    - kentosi 8y ago
      By "beaten-up" I'm assuming you mean second-hand, in which case this is an unfair comparison. I'm sure that with time we'll have second-hand models of these tiny cars. The cost would definitely make it more tempting.
amigiac 8y ago
They don't mention the range...
- akshatrathi 8y ago
  Got lost in the edit. Doh. Added now. Thanks!
- bluGill 8y ago
  That is one of the things not mentioned. Do they have heat/AC, do they work when it is -30, how do they do in a crash (granted at a 28mph top speed they don't need much production). Will they be road legal? I'm interested, my 4 mile commute never gets to 30mph anyway, but I need to be sure it will work for me vs just be another ATV that I have no use for. (I just moved, my bike is someplace but until the weather improves I'm not in a hurry to find it). After looking closer I have more questions: will I fit? I'm only slightly taller than average (about a standard deviation more), but the pictures I can find in a search suggest that I wouldn't fit.
  - AJ007 8y ago
    I may wildly presumptive (based on the photo in the article), but if there aren't any doors I'm not sure how useful heat/AC would be.
    - bluGill 8y ago
      If heat/AC is not useful, then I'm not a customer. If they can (magic?) make useful heat/AC without doors I'm fine with that. (though that does bring up the question - if I go through a puddle will I stay dry?)
  - BRAlNlAC 8y ago
    >granted at a 28mph top speed they don't need much production(sic) I have to disagree. When it comes to crash safety I am usually much more worried about a large SUV with bald tires than I am about crashing my own car. That SUV is on the road regardless of what you drive unfortunately, which drives the arms race of ever safer (and bigger and more dangerous) vehicles.
Someone1234 8y ago
I'd technically be in the demographic for this. I have a less than 10 mile commute. However, that 28 MpH maximum speed is a legitimate limitation/problem, even on my under 10 mile commute, there's at least two roads that are 40 MpH (people drive 45 MpH), and I'm going to get honked at if I can barely maintain 28 MpH. I like the price and concept... But that max speed is a deal breaker. It will be interesting to see what cost a freeway model is.
- brightball 8y ago
  These are literally golf carts. Exact same usage as a golf cart.
  - mkirklions 8y ago
    No safety protection = not cars IMO. Can't go on the freeway, no airbags, this lets not compare with US cars.
  - Shivetya 8y ago
    the usage cases are just going to be so limited, the liability of letting them on the road will probably be moot if the NHTSA holds them to the same crash standards as cars. I just don't see it, the "upscale" neighborhood adjacent to us is replete with golf carts and most of those are electric, but they have wide sidewalks to support them as the rules do not allow them on road ways.
- stemc43 8y ago
  There is no way these will be street legal in US. Just 0% chance. Selling something street legal is a huge hustle in US -> is why there is exactly 0 Chinese car manufacturers represented here (hell - no even european renault and peugeot can get established) -> just a huge lobby & big & politics & patent war stacking up against this.
  - bryanlarsen 8y ago
    Low speed vehicles with no safety equipment are street legal in most US states. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-speed_vehicle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-speed_vehicle
mdgrech23 8y ago
No crash protection? Almost 10k? I can get a decent used vehicle for 10k with a better top speed and crash protection. Seems like a no brainer to me to stick w/ a traditional model.
- blhack 8y ago
  It seems obvious that used versions of these will be cheaper than $10k.
- hourislate 8y ago
  I suppose the advantage is you might not be required to have a drivers license or insurance since the vehicle might be classified like a electric scooter or something. Sort of like driving a golf cart around. I'm really surprised the Japanese mini-trucks havn't taken off in the USA. They would be great for busy city streets where parking and space could be problematic. They also don't cost very much (used 5k USD).
  - FigBug 8y ago
    > I'm really surprised the Japanese mini-trucks havn't taken off in the USA. There was a small boom for importing them to use as farm trucks, but you can't import them until they are 25 years old if you want to drive them on the road. Most other countries have less restrictive import requirements, so they tend to go to those countries first. Not many left by the time they get to 25 years old.
  - jbay808 8y ago
    I often wonder where I can get one of those mini trucks. They are so much more practical than F150s for transporting things around a city.
- akshatrathi 8y ago
  I didn't say there's no crash protection on the Pickman. It's the $1000 cars sold in China that don't have them. Pretty sure that to qualify in the US and Europe, the Kaiyun car need to a minimum level of safety features.
akshatrathi 8y ago
I wrote this article and a field guide on China's electric-car boom https://qz.com/guide/electric-cars/ https://qz.com/guide/electric-cars/. Happy to answer any questions.
- zazen 8y ago
  Are these road-legal in the west? If the off-road farm and construction-site applications are the only use-cases, that would seem to rather limit the impact on the market.
  - akshatrathi 8y ago
    They will be in the US, because there's supposed to be NHTSA-approved version. Given regulations in Europe, I assume that would be the case too. That means this version has some more safety features than the the base model in China, which could explain why it costs more than 3x outside China.
    - dmix 8y ago
      > which could explain why it costs more than 3x outside China. Yeah, this has to be more than just western-market markup: >> Kaiyun will start selling its “Pickman” electric pickup in the US, Germany, and Italy as soon as next month. The base Chinese model sells for 16,800 yuan ($2,500). The US version will start at $8,950, Fox News reports.
  - matthewaveryusa 8y ago
    These I'm not sure, but overall yes they can be street legal: The Renault Twizy -- I've seen them in France and in Cambridge, MA (https://www.bonzer.rocks/ https://www.bonzer.rocks/) They're in use and cost ~10k. Last time I checked you can get a 25mpg and a 50mpg version. While the 25mpg versions are street legal and available now in the US market, I believe the 50mpg version is still only available in europe. https://www.renault.fr/vehicules/vehicules-electriques/twizy.html https://www.renault.fr/vehicules/vehicules-electriques/twizy...
yingw787 8y ago
I sure hope these aren’t road legal. Maybe in warehouses or farms or golf courses. Not roads.
- bryanlarsen 8y ago
  They fall under the same laws as golf karts, which vary from state to state.
- akshatrathi 8y ago
  There will be an NHTSA approved road legal version, per Fox News https://www.foxnews.com/auto/new-half-ton-electric-pickup-costs-just-5700 https://www.foxnews.com/auto/new-half-ton-electric-pickup-co...
- moate 8y ago
  Short answer: They aren't, except for certain roads with speeds under 35 MPH. This isn't a "car" in the traditional sense an American would recognize, it's a cart.
Poiesis 8y ago
At that price point I'd enthusiastically recommend a three year old Nissan Leaf; that's about what I paid and it's served me well.
- rhombocombus 8y ago
  I hadn't considered that, and looking at the prices I think that might be my next car!
- michaelt 8y ago
  Did you have to take over a battery lease, and if so how much will you be paying and for how long?
  - FigBug 8y ago
    I outright bought mine. I'd never heard of battery leasing until your comment, it doesn't appear to be an option in Canada.
  - Poiesis 8y ago
    Like the other commenter, I've never heard of a battery lease. Just bought it outright. For what it's worth I had the choice to pay a bit more to get a different Leaf that had a new battery (replacement under warranty). Given that I don't drive much (6 mile commute), I figured a slightly healthier battery is probably not going to be as useful to me, and the car/battery will deteriorate from age before mileage is as much a factor.
- rconti 8y ago
  Absolutely. You're not saving money buying a brand-new $9k car with zero resale value. You're honestly better off just buying a used Corolla and paying for gas or a used EV like you mention.
- blisterpeanuts 8y ago
  A friend of mine just bought a new Leaf in Massachusetts for a net $15,000 (includes $7500 federal tax credit and $2500 state credit). The car goes 150 miles, and doesn't look like a leaf, more like a regular sporty subcompact. I'd say it's a much better investment than one of these Pickman vehicles. Of course, there would also be a tax credit for the Pickman, though I'm not sure how much.
fignews 8y ago
In the US you can buy a used Fiat 500 Electric or Chevy Spark Electric for around the same price.
- akshatrathi 8y ago
  Good point. Didn't realize that was possible now. But makes sense given how long some electric cars have been now. Next time I write about LSEVs, I'll make a note to mention second-hand electric cars.
- randyrand 8y ago
  Sure, but you'll eventually be able to buy these things used as well.
mkirklions 8y ago
While this isn't a car to me(no airbags/freeway capability), this topic has shown how saturated Tesla's market has become. I've counted 3 competitors with electric vehicles that can be bought around this 10k price point(used). Makes me wonder how long Tesla can get away selling vehicles that are anti-consumer(no buttons/switches).
pier25 8y ago
I'm surprised China is going straight to the first world markets. These could be a hit in developing countries like Mexico (at China prices).
- kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
  Developing countries don't have reliable power delivery networks with enough reserve capacity to handle a surge in demand to charge these cars.
  - pier25 8y ago
    Good point!
  - llampx 8y ago
    Citizens of developing countries often take more of the infrastructure into their own hands than first-worlders. I can completely see someone buying a cheap-ish EV and a bunch of solar cells to go on their roof with it. Once you pay off the initial costs, you have free energy and cheap transportation. Not to mention that the power grid is often more reliable at night, when most EVs would be charged, than in the daytime.
dv_dt 8y ago
These seem like utility (landscaping) grade golf carts that are already a market in the US. Available in mostly gas, but some electric forms. https://www.deere.com/en/gator-utility-vehicles/ https://www.deere.com/en/gator-utility-vehicles/ https://www.toro.com/en/sports-fields-municipalities/utility-vehicles https://www.toro.com/en/sports-fields-municipalities/utility... https://www.catresourcecenter.com/machine/landscaping/utility-vehicles/ https://www.catresourcecenter.com/machine/landscaping/utilit...
- bluGill 8y ago
  Except these are designed to be road legal in the 46 states that allow them. As far as I can tell, the utility vehicles you state are not road legal - the difference is minor though as you can legally drive them on the road in all 50 states for things like agriculture but the limits are stronger.
  - blisterpeanuts 8y ago
    28 miles per hour pretty much rules them out except for residential neighborhoods. Most major city streets in the U.S. are at least 30 mph. If the Pickman can be improved to go 40, it might stand a chance. Otherwise, it's just a glorified golf cart as the other poster suggests.
    - thisisweirdok 8y ago
      You could get by with 28 MPH in some cities. Boston for example has a 25 MPH speed limit city-wide, unless posted otherwise. It wouldn't work in some places, but I wouldn't mind using a fancy golf cart there to run errands. That Pickman truck in the article is right up my alley.
      - kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
        NEVs have been available for 20+ years. If you want one you can have one now.
solotronics 8y ago
there is 0 chance of these being sold as road legal in the US market
Xixi 8y ago
As a comparison I looked at the two best sellers in Europe [1]: Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe. Renault Zoe is the cheapest at 22,900 USD without battery (which can be rent) or 31,350 USD with battery. Renting the battery is a popular choice in the EU (at least in France, not sure in other countries). [1] https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/03/europe-ev-sales-renault-zoe-wins-in-december-nissan-leaf-takes-2018-title/ https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/03/europe-ev-sales-renault...
- jobigoud 8y ago
  These cars are closer to the Renault Twizy.
zellyn 8y ago
I work about six to eight miles from home (depending on the route) in Atlanta. I bike in as often as I can, but I would be all over a cheap electric alternative that was rain-proof. I don't see this as a car replacement so much as a bicycle alternative.
- Poiesis 8y ago
  I commented earlier about buying a used Leaf instead of the car in the article. I just wanted to mention that it's a great bicycle alternative for me too. Used to bike to work before I had four kids going different places.
  - manmal 8y ago
    I wonder why those are so cheap in the US. A 4 yo Leaf costs €16k where I live, and that’s considered a bargain actually.
    - taneq 8y ago
      Maybe because the US seems to prefer giant SUVs with more interior space than your lounge room?
    - crowdpleaser 8y ago
      A used leaf doesn't appeal to a lot of people. A lot of used leafs are down to 60-80 miles of usable range, IIRC the average American commutes something like 15 miles each way, missing a charge or adding errands can put someone in a tight spot. And the weather in most American cities is 'extreme' - either winter is very cold (bad for battery range) or hot (bad for battery longevity in the leaf). My old city of minneapolis would have winter lows near -40 degrees C and would hit 38-40 degrees C every summer. That's very demanding for batteries. America doesn't have a lot of charging infrastructure and unless you're a homeowner or live in a luxury apartment or work at a tech company or a company with an i.t competency, it's probably going to be hard to charge regularly. Our cheap gas erodes the cost advantages of electric, you can find priuses (a Toyota hybrid) for $3k in any major city and that's going to give an electric car a serious run for its money in energy costs.
mimixco 8y ago
I think these are a terrific idea! If someone wants to ride around without crash protection, they're already able to do that in the US. It's called a motorcycle. Individual buyers should be free to choose how much safety they want in their vehicles vs. how much they're willing to pay.
- ph33t 8y ago
  Yes. I agree so much. Everyone should be free to purchase the car they want. If it sucks gas, the free market takes care of it with gas costs. I pay a ton more in gas tax (priced per gallon) than a smaller car. I also am free to use the suburban for what I want ... long road trips with my family of 5. Towing my boat. Hauling wood. I am also free to park the thing in my garage, because weather permitting (meaning above 10 degrees F) I commute 15 miles each way on my bicycle. My choice. Not anyone else's - including (and especially) the government.
cmrdporcupine 8y ago
If it can have a snow plow mounted on the front and it has a trailer hitch, I'd buy one just for use on my hobby farm. Assuming they make it to Canada. I don't need it to be road legal, either. Just needs to be narrow enough to get down an 8' vineyard row, and be able to push a couple feet of snow.
- pedrocr 8y ago
  For those uses just buy a John Deere Gator or a Toro Workman. Best purchase we ever made for our hobby farm. Relatively easy to find cheap used ones and maintenance is really simple to do yourself. We have the Workman. The electric motor climbs anything and is very easy to modulate for use in tight maneuvers. The turning radius is so small it can go anywhere it will physically fit.
  - cmrdporcupine 8y ago
    They make an electric Gator now? Looked a few years ago and it wasn't really an option. Do they actually have proper industrial or agri tires as an option? I guess it's just lead acid, tho? Must be heavy and low range. I'd love something like that with a J1772 plug so I can use my existing L2 EVSE
    - pedrocr 8y ago
      They've always made one. It's lead acid but has more than enough range for a day of work at the farm. Weight just helps with traction. Recent models have the charger on the car so you just need a place with an outlet. There are plenty of tire options out there too. I bought it with turf tires and replaced the rear ones with some nice offroad tires. It drives through pretty much anything now. Here are the ones I got: https://www.carlislebrandtires.com/our-products/product-detail/at-498 https://www.carlislebrandtires.com/our-products/product-deta... There are plenty ATV choices that fit but ones with high loading ratings are needed to support the car and the load.
btilly 8y ago
And this is how I expected electric cars to come to the USA before Tesla changed the rules. Of course if Tesla goes belly up, this could still be how our all electric future starts.
jwalton 8y ago
These sorts of vehicles are road legal here in Ontario under a pilot program: http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/vehicles/low-speed-vehicles.shtml http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/vehicles/low-speed-vehicles... But I haven't seen much adoption. You're only allowed to drive them on roads with a speed limit of 50km/h (30mph) or lower, and at least in my city that would make them fairly impractical to get around as all the major roads that connect one community to another are 60km/h or more.
onetimemanytime 8y ago
>>they run on cheap lead-acid batteries, and they have little to no crash protection. Hello Chinese cars, Welcome to America and you've been served. assuming DOT or whoever tests them even let's them in the road.
megaman8 8y ago
Notice how much more we pay vs how much they pay: "The base Chinese model sells for 16,800 yuan ($2,500). The US version will start at $8,950 ". Probably due to regulation, at least in part: it drives up costs almost 300%.
tabtab 8y ago
The US market is notoriously unforgiving of bad quality cars. Hyundai and Detroit are still trying to repair their damaged reputations from decades ago. Americans are car connoisseurs similar to how the French are food and drink connoisseurs. Tread carefully.
- saberience 8y ago
  Car connoisseurs? Americans? Are you making a joke? Everything here is a huge, gas guzzling SUV, or a Ford F150 truck. Americans don't care about road feel/driving mechanics, artistic or elegant design. They want a huge and loud car to show other people how much better they are than them. Ideally, the bigger and louder and more brash, the better. This is a country that came up with "rolling coal" for god's sake. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/05/business/energy-environment/rolling-coal-in-diesel-trucks-to-rebel-and-provoke.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/05/business/energy-environme...
  - tabtab 8y ago
    There are different kinds of connoisseurs. While Europeans tend to prefer agile sports-cars, in part because they have more winding roads, less people do drive there.
alkonaut 8y ago
I'd love a golf cart type car but the days I need it most it's -10C or -20C (Think around zero freedom degrees) and I don't trust these manufacturers to do the kind of winter testing I'm expecting. If any plastics give up, or battery thermals don't at least allow the same kind of range-fraction a Leaf or Model3 does in (really) cold weather, it's not going to work. Even my french petrol car is absolutely terrible in winter compared to a German or Swedish. Drive a few miles through slosh, leave the car out over night, then the brake calipers seize (No handbrake applied). My VW is excellent in comparison with a folding out rear view camera for example, that works even when ice covered (Tesla should take a note). This is the problem with cars: you can't get one for just 3 seasons.
- bluGill 8y ago
  I really only need a car for 3 reasons: rain, cold and snow. Last week it was -30C here (real temperature, wind made it worse), no way will I walk/bike in that. Week before we get snow/ice - the roads were slippery enough that I wouldn't want to not have a cage around me. I can bike on those nice fall days when everything is easy. (I can bike on those hot summer days but it isn't as fun)
touristtam 8y ago
So like Aixam?
justaguyhere 8y ago
When a foreigner lands in the US, the first thing she'd notice are how big things are - cars, super markets, the amount of food they give in restaurants, the size of soda cups, popcorn "buckets" etc. Americans like their big cars. I've heard them make fun of small cars as "toys" many times. It would be interesting to see how these tiny cars are received in a market that is used to having pretty much everything big.
- Renaud 8y ago
  I would assume that in high-density areas, having a smaller car that's easier to control and park would be an advantage over the bigger cars. Fuel cost is also a factor with smaller cars usually being more efficient, especially in urban traffic conditions. I would expect these electric cars would probably compete with these smaller models in dense urban areas.
  - azinman2 8y ago
    Yet the smart car never really took off, even in said high-density areas.
    - so33 8y ago
      Maybe the smart car was too small, but “Small” cars (by American standards, anyway) are still popular. They’re just disguised as SUVs and classified as “subcompact crossovers”. With how wide American roads tend to be, the Smart car is perhaps unnecessarily small for America.
      - azinman2 8y ago
        Yet you can park in many spaces in SF that a regular car cannot. So it can’t just be about utility...
- tln 8y ago
  Driving a small car around the behemoths on American roads can be terrifying. Driving a tiny car is so much worse I wouldn't even consider it... It's about what (and how) other people drive as much as my own tastes
myrandomcomment 8y ago
Looking for a car for my daughter (15). Requirements in order: Safety crash rating AWD Small Electric No solution set found. :(
EricE 8y ago
I was hoping Trump would kill the chicken tax in his gusto to eliminate tariffs. There aren't any small trucks in the US because manufacturers found out they (a) don't have to offer them and (b) make more money from larger cars. Mahindra was going to bring some interesting cheap mini-trucks but the chicken tax among other things scuttled it. https://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/7-trucks-that-might-be-imported-to-the-united-states-soon.html/ https://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/7-trucks-that-might-b...
agumonkey 8y ago
A great stealth way to limit speeding I suppose.
known 8y ago
Calling cheap is rude. Inexpensive?

291 points by prostoalex 8y ago

I would guess these work better in china which is a more dense country without the driving culture the US at least has. A car that goes 28mph with a limited range is basically a scooter.

akshatrathi 8y ago
With a 450 kg load capacity, but yes.
Scarblac 8y ago
Exactly, this is something to use within a single city it seems. In the Netherlands, people use their bicycle for that.
v_lisivka 8y ago
I saw electrical cargo tricycles in use at local resort. They are quiet and cheap (about $2k). IMHO, they are ideal for resorts. https://www.google.com/search?q=hercules+tricycle+electric https://www.google.com/search?q=hercules+tricycle+electric

buboard 8y ago

these seem great to replace scooters in european cities.

jaclaz 8y ago

These will go (in Europe) in the same range of so-called tiny-cars (quadricycles), discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18061897 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18061897

maybeiambatman 8y ago

I'd happily buy one for city commutes when they become available.

fxfan 8y ago

Not if Trump deems the talks with China to have failed and levies tax. I've watched too many liveleaks to be able to sit in anything China made

swarnie_ 8y ago
Can't see Trumps opinion holding much weight in Europe to be honest.
- subjectHarold 8y ago
  Didn't you know that French protesters have been chanting "We want Trump"?
- bluGill 8y ago
  Probably, but I live in the US so like it or not they hold weight to me.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

howard941 8y ago

I'd prefer something like this for my in-city commute over the already-allowed golf cart, but not at that price point.

oblio 8y ago
> but not at that price point Are they too expensive?
- monochromatic 8y ago
  $9000 seems like a lot for something so limited.
  - akshatrathi 8y ago
    Yeah, I'd like to buy them at the price they sell it in China: $2,500.
    - yellowapple 8y ago
      I suspect the price difference is due to different standards of "road-worthiness" in China v. the US.
- blacksmith_tb 8y ago
  Seems like it, you could pick up a used Nissan Leaf coming off a lease for ~$7K USD, which is more comfortable and I have to imagine a lot safer. The Pickman might make an interesting delivery vehicle in cities, though.
- howard941 8y ago
  In a relative sense, for me, yes. Small value for more than the price of a beaten-up Fiat 500.
  - kentosi 8y ago
    By "beaten-up" I'm assuming you mean second-hand, in which case this is an unfair comparison. I'm sure that with time we'll have second-hand models of these tiny cars. The cost would definitely make it more tempting.

amigiac 8y ago

They don't mention the range...

akshatrathi 8y ago
Got lost in the edit. Doh. Added now. Thanks!
bluGill 8y ago
That is one of the things not mentioned. Do they have heat/AC, do they work when it is -30, how do they do in a crash (granted at a 28mph top speed they don't need much production). Will they be road legal? I'm interested, my 4 mile commute never gets to 30mph anyway, but I need to be sure it will work for me vs just be another ATV that I have no use for. (I just moved, my bike is someplace but until the weather improves I'm not in a hurry to find it). After looking closer I have more questions: will I fit? I'm only slightly taller than average (about a standard deviation more), but the pictures I can find in a search suggest that I wouldn't fit.
- AJ007 8y ago
  I may wildly presumptive (based on the photo in the article), but if there aren't any doors I'm not sure how useful heat/AC would be.
  - bluGill 8y ago
    If heat/AC is not useful, then I'm not a customer. If they can (magic?) make useful heat/AC without doors I'm fine with that. (though that does bring up the question - if I go through a puddle will I stay dry?)
- BRAlNlAC 8y ago
  >granted at a 28mph top speed they don't need much production(sic) I have to disagree. When it comes to crash safety I am usually much more worried about a large SUV with bald tires than I am about crashing my own car. That SUV is on the road regardless of what you drive unfortunately, which drives the arms race of ever safer (and bigger and more dangerous) vehicles.

Someone1234 8y ago

I'd technically be in the demographic for this. I have a less than 10 mile commute. However, that 28 MpH maximum speed is a legitimate limitation/problem, even on my under 10 mile commute, there's at least two roads that are 40 MpH (people drive 45 MpH), and I'm going to get honked at if I can barely maintain 28 MpH. I like the price and concept... But that max speed is a deal breaker. It will be interesting to see what cost a freeway model is.

brightball 8y ago
These are literally golf carts. Exact same usage as a golf cart.
- mkirklions 8y ago
  No safety protection = not cars IMO. Can't go on the freeway, no airbags, this lets not compare with US cars.
- Shivetya 8y ago
  the usage cases are just going to be so limited, the liability of letting them on the road will probably be moot if the NHTSA holds them to the same crash standards as cars. I just don't see it, the "upscale" neighborhood adjacent to us is replete with golf carts and most of those are electric, but they have wide sidewalks to support them as the rules do not allow them on road ways.
stemc43 8y ago
There is no way these will be street legal in US. Just 0% chance. Selling something street legal is a huge hustle in US -> is why there is exactly 0 Chinese car manufacturers represented here (hell - no even european renault and peugeot can get established) -> just a huge lobby & big & politics & patent war stacking up against this.
- bryanlarsen 8y ago
  Low speed vehicles with no safety equipment are street legal in most US states. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-speed_vehicle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-speed_vehicle

mdgrech23 8y ago

No crash protection? Almost 10k? I can get a decent used vehicle for 10k with a better top speed and crash protection. Seems like a no brainer to me to stick w/ a traditional model.

blhack 8y ago
It seems obvious that used versions of these will be cheaper than $10k.
hourislate 8y ago
I suppose the advantage is you might not be required to have a drivers license or insurance since the vehicle might be classified like a electric scooter or something. Sort of like driving a golf cart around. I'm really surprised the Japanese mini-trucks havn't taken off in the USA. They would be great for busy city streets where parking and space could be problematic. They also don't cost very much (used 5k USD).
- FigBug 8y ago
  > I'm really surprised the Japanese mini-trucks havn't taken off in the USA. There was a small boom for importing them to use as farm trucks, but you can't import them until they are 25 years old if you want to drive them on the road. Most other countries have less restrictive import requirements, so they tend to go to those countries first. Not many left by the time they get to 25 years old.
- jbay808 8y ago
  I often wonder where I can get one of those mini trucks. They are so much more practical than F150s for transporting things around a city.
akshatrathi 8y ago
I didn't say there's no crash protection on the Pickman. It's the $1000 cars sold in China that don't have them. Pretty sure that to qualify in the US and Europe, the Kaiyun car need to a minimum level of safety features.

akshatrathi 8y ago

I wrote this article and a field guide on China's electric-car boom https://qz.com/guide/electric-cars/ https://qz.com/guide/electric-cars/. Happy to answer any questions.

zazen 8y ago
Are these road-legal in the west? If the off-road farm and construction-site applications are the only use-cases, that would seem to rather limit the impact on the market.
- akshatrathi 8y ago
  They will be in the US, because there's supposed to be NHTSA-approved version. Given regulations in Europe, I assume that would be the case too. That means this version has some more safety features than the the base model in China, which could explain why it costs more than 3x outside China.
  - dmix 8y ago
    > which could explain why it costs more than 3x outside China. Yeah, this has to be more than just western-market markup: >> Kaiyun will start selling its “Pickman” electric pickup in the US, Germany, and Italy as soon as next month. The base Chinese model sells for 16,800 yuan ($2,500). The US version will start at $8,950, Fox News reports.
- matthewaveryusa 8y ago
  These I'm not sure, but overall yes they can be street legal: The Renault Twizy -- I've seen them in France and in Cambridge, MA (https://www.bonzer.rocks/ https://www.bonzer.rocks/) They're in use and cost ~10k. Last time I checked you can get a 25mpg and a 50mpg version. While the 25mpg versions are street legal and available now in the US market, I believe the 50mpg version is still only available in europe. https://www.renault.fr/vehicules/vehicules-electriques/twizy.html https://www.renault.fr/vehicules/vehicules-electriques/twizy...

yingw787 8y ago

I sure hope these aren’t road legal. Maybe in warehouses or farms or golf courses. Not roads.

bryanlarsen 8y ago
They fall under the same laws as golf karts, which vary from state to state.
akshatrathi 8y ago
There will be an NHTSA approved road legal version, per Fox News https://www.foxnews.com/auto/new-half-ton-electric-pickup-costs-just-5700 https://www.foxnews.com/auto/new-half-ton-electric-pickup-co...
moate 8y ago
Short answer: They aren't, except for certain roads with speeds under 35 MPH. This isn't a "car" in the traditional sense an American would recognize, it's a cart.

Poiesis 8y ago

At that price point I'd enthusiastically recommend a three year old Nissan Leaf; that's about what I paid and it's served me well.

rhombocombus 8y ago
I hadn't considered that, and looking at the prices I think that might be my next car!
michaelt 8y ago
Did you have to take over a battery lease, and if so how much will you be paying and for how long?
- FigBug 8y ago
  I outright bought mine. I'd never heard of battery leasing until your comment, it doesn't appear to be an option in Canada.
- Poiesis 8y ago
  Like the other commenter, I've never heard of a battery lease. Just bought it outright. For what it's worth I had the choice to pay a bit more to get a different Leaf that had a new battery (replacement under warranty). Given that I don't drive much (6 mile commute), I figured a slightly healthier battery is probably not going to be as useful to me, and the car/battery will deteriorate from age before mileage is as much a factor.
rconti 8y ago
Absolutely. You're not saving money buying a brand-new $9k car with zero resale value. You're honestly better off just buying a used Corolla and paying for gas or a used EV like you mention.
blisterpeanuts 8y ago
A friend of mine just bought a new Leaf in Massachusetts for a net $15,000 (includes $7500 federal tax credit and $2500 state credit). The car goes 150 miles, and doesn't look like a leaf, more like a regular sporty subcompact. I'd say it's a much better investment than one of these Pickman vehicles. Of course, there would also be a tax credit for the Pickman, though I'm not sure how much.

fignews 8y ago

In the US you can buy a used Fiat 500 Electric or Chevy Spark Electric for around the same price.

akshatrathi 8y ago
Good point. Didn't realize that was possible now. But makes sense given how long some electric cars have been now. Next time I write about LSEVs, I'll make a note to mention second-hand electric cars.
randyrand 8y ago
Sure, but you'll eventually be able to buy these things used as well.

mkirklions 8y ago

While this isn't a car to me(no airbags/freeway capability), this topic has shown how saturated Tesla's market has become. I've counted 3 competitors with electric vehicles that can be bought around this 10k price point(used). Makes me wonder how long Tesla can get away selling vehicles that are anti-consumer(no buttons/switches).

pier25 8y ago

I'm surprised China is going straight to the first world markets. These could be a hit in developing countries like Mexico (at China prices).

kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
Developing countries don't have reliable power delivery networks with enough reserve capacity to handle a surge in demand to charge these cars.
- pier25 8y ago
  Good point!
- llampx 8y ago
  Citizens of developing countries often take more of the infrastructure into their own hands than first-worlders. I can completely see someone buying a cheap-ish EV and a bunch of solar cells to go on their roof with it. Once you pay off the initial costs, you have free energy and cheap transportation. Not to mention that the power grid is often more reliable at night, when most EVs would be charged, than in the daytime.

dv_dt 8y ago

These seem like utility (landscaping) grade golf carts that are already a market in the US. Available in mostly gas, but some electric forms. https://www.deere.com/en/gator-utility-vehicles/ https://www.deere.com/en/gator-utility-vehicles/ https://www.toro.com/en/sports-fields-municipalities/utility-vehicles https://www.toro.com/en/sports-fields-municipalities/utility... https://www.catresourcecenter.com/machine/landscaping/utility-vehicles/ https://www.catresourcecenter.com/machine/landscaping/utilit...

bluGill 8y ago
Except these are designed to be road legal in the 46 states that allow them. As far as I can tell, the utility vehicles you state are not road legal - the difference is minor though as you can legally drive them on the road in all 50 states for things like agriculture but the limits are stronger.
- blisterpeanuts 8y ago
  28 miles per hour pretty much rules them out except for residential neighborhoods. Most major city streets in the U.S. are at least 30 mph. If the Pickman can be improved to go 40, it might stand a chance. Otherwise, it's just a glorified golf cart as the other poster suggests.
  - thisisweirdok 8y ago
    You could get by with 28 MPH in some cities. Boston for example has a 25 MPH speed limit city-wide, unless posted otherwise. It wouldn't work in some places, but I wouldn't mind using a fancy golf cart there to run errands. That Pickman truck in the article is right up my alley.
    - kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
      NEVs have been available for 20+ years. If you want one you can have one now.

solotronics 8y ago

there is 0 chance of these being sold as road legal in the US market

Xixi 8y ago

As a comparison I looked at the two best sellers in Europe [1]: Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe. Renault Zoe is the cheapest at 22,900 USD without battery (which can be rent) or 31,350 USD with battery. Renting the battery is a popular choice in the EU (at least in France, not sure in other countries). [1] https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/03/europe-ev-sales-renault-zoe-wins-in-december-nissan-leaf-takes-2018-title/ https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/03/europe-ev-sales-renault...

jobigoud 8y ago
These cars are closer to the Renault Twizy.

zellyn 8y ago

I work about six to eight miles from home (depending on the route) in Atlanta. I bike in as often as I can, but I would be all over a cheap electric alternative that was rain-proof. I don't see this as a car replacement so much as a bicycle alternative.

Poiesis 8y ago
I commented earlier about buying a used Leaf instead of the car in the article. I just wanted to mention that it's a great bicycle alternative for me too. Used to bike to work before I had four kids going different places.
- manmal 8y ago
  I wonder why those are so cheap in the US. A 4 yo Leaf costs €16k where I live, and that’s considered a bargain actually.
  - taneq 8y ago
    Maybe because the US seems to prefer giant SUVs with more interior space than your lounge room?
  - crowdpleaser 8y ago
    A used leaf doesn't appeal to a lot of people. A lot of used leafs are down to 60-80 miles of usable range, IIRC the average American commutes something like 15 miles each way, missing a charge or adding errands can put someone in a tight spot. And the weather in most American cities is 'extreme' - either winter is very cold (bad for battery range) or hot (bad for battery longevity in the leaf). My old city of minneapolis would have winter lows near -40 degrees C and would hit 38-40 degrees C every summer. That's very demanding for batteries. America doesn't have a lot of charging infrastructure and unless you're a homeowner or live in a luxury apartment or work at a tech company or a company with an i.t competency, it's probably going to be hard to charge regularly. Our cheap gas erodes the cost advantages of electric, you can find priuses (a Toyota hybrid) for $3k in any major city and that's going to give an electric car a serious run for its money in energy costs.

mimixco 8y ago

I think these are a terrific idea! If someone wants to ride around without crash protection, they're already able to do that in the US. It's called a motorcycle. Individual buyers should be free to choose how much safety they want in their vehicles vs. how much they're willing to pay.

ph33t 8y ago
Yes. I agree so much. Everyone should be free to purchase the car they want. If it sucks gas, the free market takes care of it with gas costs. I pay a ton more in gas tax (priced per gallon) than a smaller car. I also am free to use the suburban for what I want ... long road trips with my family of 5. Towing my boat. Hauling wood. I am also free to park the thing in my garage, because weather permitting (meaning above 10 degrees F) I commute 15 miles each way on my bicycle. My choice. Not anyone else's - including (and especially) the government.

cmrdporcupine 8y ago

If it can have a snow plow mounted on the front and it has a trailer hitch, I'd buy one just for use on my hobby farm. Assuming they make it to Canada. I don't need it to be road legal, either. Just needs to be narrow enough to get down an 8' vineyard row, and be able to push a couple feet of snow.

pedrocr 8y ago
For those uses just buy a John Deere Gator or a Toro Workman. Best purchase we ever made for our hobby farm. Relatively easy to find cheap used ones and maintenance is really simple to do yourself. We have the Workman. The electric motor climbs anything and is very easy to modulate for use in tight maneuvers. The turning radius is so small it can go anywhere it will physically fit.
- cmrdporcupine 8y ago
  They make an electric Gator now? Looked a few years ago and it wasn't really an option. Do they actually have proper industrial or agri tires as an option? I guess it's just lead acid, tho? Must be heavy and low range. I'd love something like that with a J1772 plug so I can use my existing L2 EVSE
  - pedrocr 8y ago
    They've always made one. It's lead acid but has more than enough range for a day of work at the farm. Weight just helps with traction. Recent models have the charger on the car so you just need a place with an outlet. There are plenty of tire options out there too. I bought it with turf tires and replaced the rear ones with some nice offroad tires. It drives through pretty much anything now. Here are the ones I got: https://www.carlislebrandtires.com/our-products/product-detail/at-498 https://www.carlislebrandtires.com/our-products/product-deta... There are plenty ATV choices that fit but ones with high loading ratings are needed to support the car and the load.

btilly 8y ago

And this is how I expected electric cars to come to the USA before Tesla changed the rules. Of course if Tesla goes belly up, this could still be how our all electric future starts.

jwalton 8y ago

These sorts of vehicles are road legal here in Ontario under a pilot program: http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/vehicles/low-speed-vehicles.shtml http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/vehicles/low-speed-vehicles... But I haven't seen much adoption. You're only allowed to drive them on roads with a speed limit of 50km/h (30mph) or lower, and at least in my city that would make them fairly impractical to get around as all the major roads that connect one community to another are 60km/h or more.

onetimemanytime 8y ago

>>they run on cheap lead-acid batteries, and they have little to no crash protection. Hello Chinese cars, Welcome to America and you've been served. assuming DOT or whoever tests them even let's them in the road.

megaman8 8y ago

Notice how much more we pay vs how much they pay: "The base Chinese model sells for 16,800 yuan ($2,500). The US version will start at $8,950 ". Probably due to regulation, at least in part: it drives up costs almost 300%.

tabtab 8y ago

The US market is notoriously unforgiving of bad quality cars. Hyundai and Detroit are still trying to repair their damaged reputations from decades ago. Americans are car connoisseurs similar to how the French are food and drink connoisseurs. Tread carefully.

saberience 8y ago
Car connoisseurs? Americans? Are you making a joke? Everything here is a huge, gas guzzling SUV, or a Ford F150 truck. Americans don't care about road feel/driving mechanics, artistic or elegant design. They want a huge and loud car to show other people how much better they are than them. Ideally, the bigger and louder and more brash, the better. This is a country that came up with "rolling coal" for god's sake. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/05/business/energy-environment/rolling-coal-in-diesel-trucks-to-rebel-and-provoke.html https://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/05/business/energy-environme...
- tabtab 8y ago
  There are different kinds of connoisseurs. While Europeans tend to prefer agile sports-cars, in part because they have more winding roads, less people do drive there.

alkonaut 8y ago

I'd love a golf cart type car but the days I need it most it's -10C or -20C (Think around zero freedom degrees) and I don't trust these manufacturers to do the kind of winter testing I'm expecting. If any plastics give up, or battery thermals don't at least allow the same kind of range-fraction a Leaf or Model3 does in (really) cold weather, it's not going to work. Even my french petrol car is absolutely terrible in winter compared to a German or Swedish. Drive a few miles through slosh, leave the car out over night, then the brake calipers seize (No handbrake applied). My VW is excellent in comparison with a folding out rear view camera for example, that works even when ice covered (Tesla should take a note). This is the problem with cars: you can't get one for just 3 seasons.

bluGill 8y ago
I really only need a car for 3 reasons: rain, cold and snow. Last week it was -30C here (real temperature, wind made it worse), no way will I walk/bike in that. Week before we get snow/ice - the roads were slippery enough that I wouldn't want to not have a cage around me. I can bike on those nice fall days when everything is easy. (I can bike on those hot summer days but it isn't as fun)

touristtam 8y ago

So like Aixam?

justaguyhere 8y ago

When a foreigner lands in the US, the first thing she'd notice are how big things are - cars, super markets, the amount of food they give in restaurants, the size of soda cups, popcorn "buckets" etc. Americans like their big cars. I've heard them make fun of small cars as "toys" many times. It would be interesting to see how these tiny cars are received in a market that is used to having pretty much everything big.

Renaud 8y ago
I would assume that in high-density areas, having a smaller car that's easier to control and park would be an advantage over the bigger cars. Fuel cost is also a factor with smaller cars usually being more efficient, especially in urban traffic conditions. I would expect these electric cars would probably compete with these smaller models in dense urban areas.
- azinman2 8y ago
  Yet the smart car never really took off, even in said high-density areas.
  - so33 8y ago
    Maybe the smart car was too small, but “Small” cars (by American standards, anyway) are still popular. They’re just disguised as SUVs and classified as “subcompact crossovers”. With how wide American roads tend to be, the Smart car is perhaps unnecessarily small for America.
    - azinman2 8y ago
      Yet you can park in many spaces in SF that a regular car cannot. So it can’t just be about utility...
tln 8y ago
Driving a small car around the behemoths on American roads can be terrifying. Driving a tiny car is so much worse I wouldn't even consider it... It's about what (and how) other people drive as much as my own tastes

myrandomcomment 8y ago

Looking for a car for my daughter (15). Requirements in order: Safety crash rating AWD Small Electric No solution set found. :(

EricE 8y ago

I was hoping Trump would kill the chicken tax in his gusto to eliminate tariffs. There aren't any small trucks in the US because manufacturers found out they (a) don't have to offer them and (b) make more money from larger cars. Mahindra was going to bring some interesting cheap mini-trucks but the chicken tax among other things scuttled it. https://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/7-trucks-that-might-be-imported-to-the-united-states-soon.html/ https://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/7-trucks-that-might-b...

agumonkey 8y ago

A great stealth way to limit speeding I suppose.

known 8y ago

Calling cheap is rude. Inexpensive?