4 ms·

Anovikov: The lack of empathy, not just in the system you describe, but in your praise of it, is quite disturbing. Of course, this used to be a common attitude

by Henk0 8y ago

Anovikov: The lack of empathy, not just in the system you describe, but in your praise of it, is quite disturbing. Of course, this used to be a common attitude in most parts of the world some decades ago, and the way it contrasts with most other comments in this thread is telling in many ways. Your reasoning showcases the authoritarian mindset and moral framework, where other people are judged based on rigid ideas of right and wrong, with no interest in or understanding of their individual problems, abilities or past experiences. People are good or bad, and bad people should be punished until they become good. The problem with this moral framework is that it is disconnected from reality. Punishment doesn’t help a woman who uses alcohol or heroin to soothe a brain and nervous system that is damaged by trauma from childhood abuse. It adds more trauma, and more incentive to continue numbing her pain. Someone who hasn’t experienced real trauma cannot possibly understand how this feels, and it’s easier to just label her a bad apple and get her out of sight and out of mind

anovikov 8y ago
OK, so you don't agree that being a bum (systematic, i am not speaking about it as a random happening event like a house fire where the documents were lost too, or running away from home violence), is a crime against public order? >Punishment doesn’t help a woman who uses alcohol or heroin to soothe a brain and nervous system that is damaged by trauma from childhood abuse No it doesn't, but in Belarus case, she will be sent (forcibly, but probably without a criminal conviction) to a rehab to try to fix her addiction, not to gulag or a gas chamber. And of course if she has kids, they will be taken away and put for adoption. I can't see what's wrong with this, or at least how it can be done better. Being a bum is not the same as being poor. It is the kind of a criminal behavior and/or mental disorder. It is especially so in the deep welfare state which leaves very little chances for someone to fall out, such as Belarus is (it is a poor welfare state in the sense that most of its inhabitants are poor, but yet, it works in a way ensuring that no one is left without ways to make basic means for existence, it is not a dog-eat-dog society in any way). Ah. There is no lawful way of becoming homeless in Belarus. Everyone is obligated to have an address of registration by law and government ensures everyone has a place (in nothing else works, it will be a bed in adult dormitory, but still). Bums are very rarely actually homeless (although their place may be a dilapidated house in a countryside in a place with no work). My 'rigid system of right and wrong' is pretty simple: society should follow the interest of law-abiding, working, tax-paying citizens.
- lazyasciiart 8y ago
  When you said you couldn't figure out why homelessness was a problem in other countries, do you mean you actually didn't know that most countries don't have forced labor camps?
  - anovikov 8y ago
    Forced labor camps is what stands instead of simple prisons in ex-USSR, simply because of poverty of those countries. The same category of people (chronic, multiple repeat offenders who provably have no intention of changing their habits, and as a result of a due process and a court sentence), shall just go to prison in these countries. They might turn out to be one of the rare categories of people who prison actually fixes - one motive of being a bum is having absolutely no bosses, no mandatory routine, and being able to completely disrespect any kind of rules or authority - being in prison where you are forced to do otherwise for a number of years might actually change that habit (while i am not criminologist, this one admittedly might be bs). And if you meant the forced labor as an administrative sentence, it's not something horrible, these are not gulags. Aren't people forced to do community work by say, cleaning the streets or assisting nurses in hospitals/nursing homes for misdemeanors such as drunk fights or driving drunk in Western countries? This is same kind of thing. If you don't like the idea of LTP, then well, i don't like it either, but you have probably little idea of what's called an alcoholic in Belarus - where most adult male population are alcoholics, clinically speaking, and under 1% are risking getting into these LTPs (and most of them are not bums, typically police would send someone there once they realize that he's one binge away from stabbing his wife to death). Sure, in the West where most people aren't forced to live where they were born because of being dependent on relatives network safety net and/or can afford to buy or rent homes, simpler solution is segregation (soft: basically not trying to artificially slow down market forces that tend to naturally increase the poor/rich communities split) and better policing of poorer areas, but this is what liberals are strongly against, so i'm not really suggesting it.
    - lazyasciiart 8y ago
      I think that comment is all justifications for forced labor camps not being so bad, not an answer to my question.

by Henk0 8y ago

anovikov 8y ago

OK, so you don't agree that being a bum (systematic, i am not speaking about it as a random happening event like a house fire where the documents were lost too, or running away from home violence), is a crime against public order? >Punishment doesn’t help a woman who uses alcohol or heroin to soothe a brain and nervous system that is damaged by trauma from childhood abuse No it doesn't, but in Belarus case, she will be sent (forcibly, but probably without a criminal conviction) to a rehab to try to fix her addiction, not to gulag or a gas chamber. And of course if she has kids, they will be taken away and put for adoption. I can't see what's wrong with this, or at least how it can be done better. Being a bum is not the same as being poor. It is the kind of a criminal behavior and/or mental disorder. It is especially so in the deep welfare state which leaves very little chances for someone to fall out, such as Belarus is (it is a poor welfare state in the sense that most of its inhabitants are poor, but yet, it works in a way ensuring that no one is left without ways to make basic means for existence, it is not a dog-eat-dog society in any way). Ah. There is no lawful way of becoming homeless in Belarus. Everyone is obligated to have an address of registration by law and government ensures everyone has a place (in nothing else works, it will be a bed in adult dormitory, but still). Bums are very rarely actually homeless (although their place may be a dilapidated house in a countryside in a place with no work). My 'rigid system of right and wrong' is pretty simple: society should follow the interest of law-abiding, working, tax-paying citizens.

lazyasciiart 8y ago
When you said you couldn't figure out why homelessness was a problem in other countries, do you mean you actually didn't know that most countries don't have forced labor camps?
- anovikov 8y ago
  Forced labor camps is what stands instead of simple prisons in ex-USSR, simply because of poverty of those countries. The same category of people (chronic, multiple repeat offenders who provably have no intention of changing their habits, and as a result of a due process and a court sentence), shall just go to prison in these countries. They might turn out to be one of the rare categories of people who prison actually fixes - one motive of being a bum is having absolutely no bosses, no mandatory routine, and being able to completely disrespect any kind of rules or authority - being in prison where you are forced to do otherwise for a number of years might actually change that habit (while i am not criminologist, this one admittedly might be bs). And if you meant the forced labor as an administrative sentence, it's not something horrible, these are not gulags. Aren't people forced to do community work by say, cleaning the streets or assisting nurses in hospitals/nursing homes for misdemeanors such as drunk fights or driving drunk in Western countries? This is same kind of thing. If you don't like the idea of LTP, then well, i don't like it either, but you have probably little idea of what's called an alcoholic in Belarus - where most adult male population are alcoholics, clinically speaking, and under 1% are risking getting into these LTPs (and most of them are not bums, typically police would send someone there once they realize that he's one binge away from stabbing his wife to death). Sure, in the West where most people aren't forced to live where they were born because of being dependent on relatives network safety net and/or can afford to buy or rent homes, simpler solution is segregation (soft: basically not trying to artificially slow down market forces that tend to naturally increase the poor/rich communities split) and better policing of poorer areas, but this is what liberals are strongly against, so i'm not really suggesting it.
  - lazyasciiart 8y ago
    I think that comment is all justifications for forced labor camps not being so bad, not an answer to my question.