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The N.Y. Times’ Support of U.S.-Backed Coups in Latin America

20 points by jules-jules 8y ago

whatshisface 8y ago
Why do papers collaborate with the government in this way? I don't see what they would have to gain, it's not like they're getting paid.
- randiantech 8y ago
  Newspapers shouldnt think if a particular opinion provides "a gain" or not, even if most of the times they act following that principle. Other than that, I dont see a specific support for coups on some of the extracts mentioned in the Article (Argentina, Chile, Brazil).
- ilaksh 8y ago
  The government can't give them a choice if they want their operations to be successful. Research "the Fourth Estate". When it comes to military operations, either covert or overt, the media coverage actually has to be considered as part of the operation. For this reason intelligence has to have influence with major media and draw hard lines with respect to certain required propaganda. People are going to dismiss that as a conspiracy theory especially with regard to the US, but before you do think about it. Have you ever read about a war where the soldiers were describing their motivation and they talked about strategic objectives? Do soldiers go to war to chanting about "20% More Oil Reserve Control Hoorah!"? No. Because wars involve risking your life and killing others. Because of that, military personnel need moral causes to fight for. If they turn on the news and they start saying that three oil executives are predicting an immediate five percent rise in oil prices if the Venezualan nationalization continues into 2019, is that really going to motivate them to shoot people? No. They need a bad guy. They need to know they are fighting against a bad system and for freedom. It needs to be cut and dry.
- phry 8y ago
  access to people and information
- JamesBarney 8y ago
  I don't think the nytimes is trying to back the governments opinion. One the author is cherry picking times when the nytimes supported the government. But I'm sure someone else could find plenty of times when they didn't. Secondly when they made the wrong call, I bet at least part of the reason was 2002 was a less connected time, and there was more trust in government. So if a bunch of government offficials tell the journalist Chavez is a terrible regime. And you happen to know a handful of anti Chavez individuals in Venezuela the journalist could easily make the wrong call.
diego_moita 8y ago
There's a lot of click bait going on in here. A coup in Venezuela wouldn't disrupt a democratic order because there is no democratic order in Venezuela. The article assumes that Maduro is a legitimate President. That is simply not true, there is solid evidence of plenty of fraud on the last election, the rule of the law is long gone in there, the justice courts are puppets of the regime, the legislative is silenced by force. What is at stake here is just whether the military keep supporting the caudillo Maduro or not. Democracy is out of this game already.
- bassman9000 8y ago
  The Maduro defense is getting ridiculous. https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elecciones_parlamentarias_de_Venezuela_de_2015 https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elecciones_parlamentarias_de_V... The opposition won the elections, 112 to 55 MP, which, AFAIK, are also electors. There was a supposed fraud on a few of them, which, on the other hand, was poorly substantiated, and very likely fake on its own. Sin embargo, apenas una semana después de las declaraciones anteriores, el TSJ difundió oficialmente que había aceptado 7 denuncias de impugnaciones que afectaban a un total de 8 diputados electos para representar a los estados Amazonas, Aragua y Yaracuy,,111 de las cuales 6 fueron posteriormente declaradas improcedentes112 y la séptima aceptada como procedente, consecuentemente siendo declarado por el TSJ que se ordenaba la "suspensión" de los actos de totalización de votos y proclamación de resultados de la elección parlamentaria en todos los circuitos del estado Amazonas,113 afectando a tres diputados electos por la MUD (uno de ellos de la representación indígena por la región sur) y un diputado del PSUV elegido por votación lista.114 Supreme court, nominated by Maduro, then prevents MP from taking oath, which, in effect, makes the assembly non-functional. Maduro then orders the supreme court to install him as president, one more time. If there was a coup, it was a judicial one, by Maduro, in 2015.
- trextrex 8y ago
  Did you actually read the article? It's about a lot more than just the Venezuelan coup.
  - JamesBarney 8y ago
dj_gitmo 8y ago
Establishment media organizations in the Anglo world are so reluctant to criticize of the Government line on anything related to foreign policy. It seems like it would be so easy and risk-free in the current era especially. They're either ignorant of the history of US interference in Latin America, or they're ideologues acting in bad faith. I imaging there is also a strong pressure to go-along to get-along that weeds out anyone who would properly push back. I recommend The Gray Zone Project for a counters-establishment perspective. Like all journalism, you need to know how to read it, but it really does cover foreign policy in a way that NYT cannot. https://grayzoneproject.com/ https://grayzoneproject.com/ If you prefer something more tabloid-y I recommend The Canary. They even have US and UK editions. https://www.thecanary.co/us/ https://www.thecanary.co/us/
- jcranmer 8y ago
  > Establishment media organizations in the Anglo world are so reluctant to criticize of the Government line on anything related to foreign policy. How did you miss the fact that virtually every US newspaper has criticized the current president's foreign policy on deep breath Syria, Russia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Russia, Iran, North Korea, Russia, Canada, South Korea, Russia, most of our allies, etc? Even before our current president plumbed unheard of depths in foreign policy idiocies, I've long seen criticism of foreign policy. The drone assassination program was a big one. The virtues of the surges in Iraq and Afghanistan was certainly a spirited debate.
  - dj_gitmo 8y ago
    I'm not really talking about the current administration. I'm talking about the US government's overall policy of overseas intervention that goes back decades. The press often criticize the government for not intervening, or for exiting an intervention. You're not going to see anyone on the pages of the NYT say that the US shouldn't be intervening in other countries, period. > How did you miss the fact that virtually every US newspaper has criticized the current president's foreign policy on deep breath Syria, Russia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Russia, Iran, North Korea, Russia, Canada, South Korea, Russia, most of our allies, etc? > Syria The press criticized the administration for deciding to leave. Even though the Syrian civil war is basically over and the regime won. Obama was criticized for not "doing enough" even though the Syrian Civil War was the largest CIA operation in decades and the opposition was overwhelmingly made up of sectarian death-squads. Don't take my word for it, read what the NYT's Thomas Friedman said in 2017. He argues we should allow ISIS to continue existing so that it might take down the Assad regime. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/12/opinion/why-is-trump-fighting-isis-in-syria.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/12/opinion/why-is-trump-figh... > Russia The liberal press has been criticized the decision not to ramp up a new cold-war with Russia. They attack anyone who opposes more sanctions. > Iraq The press uncritically promoted the invasion of Iraq and only turned against it when it started going bad. > Afghanistan If the any administration decided to pull out they would be criticized. How about the West's role in Yemen? You didn't hear anything about that in the Anglo press until recently even though the UN was calling it the worst humanitarian disaster in the world. I'm not saying the establishment press is always wrong. They serve an important purpose, but on foreign policy in particular their coverage ranges from good(leaving the Iran deal is bad) to awful(uncritical support for Syrian opposition), and sometimes it's just propaganda.
JamesBarney 8y ago
Summary : America has done a lot of terrible things in South America.(agreed) They tried to depose a lot of legitimate leaders. (agreed) A couple of times the nytimes argued it was the right thing to do when it probably wasn't. (I'll take their word for it.) But none of the article argues that Maduro is a legitimate leader. And I don't know if I buy the argument that because we tried to depose a lot of legitimate leaders in the past with illegitimate ones we should now support an illegitimate leader instead of the legitimate one.
- dj_gitmo 8y ago
  The question that matters is: Should the US intervene. Let's run down a list of the recent US interventions. Russian Election of 1996: The US helped rig Russia's election in 1996. Electing Yeltsin for a second term is what brought in Putin and basically killed Russian democracy. https://www.globalresearch.ca/us-meddling-in-1996-russian-elections-in-support-of-boris-yeltsin/5568288 https://www.globalresearch.ca/us-meddling-in-1996-russian-el... Iraq: 600,000 dead so far. Libya: It was supposed to turn into a thriving democracy but instead it's now a thriving slave market. https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/14/africa/libya-migrant-auctions/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/14/africa/libya-migrant-auctions... Yemen: Largest humanitarian crisis in the world. The list goes on and on. Things don't get better when the US intervenes. Let Venezuela decide it's own fate.
factorhack 8y ago
Media bias. Desde Chile: Allende fue declarado inconstitucional por el congreso. La CIA entró en juego porque aquí estaba trabajando la KGB y los Cubanos. Había inflación sobre el 400%, los comunistas expropiaron e introdujeron armas, el país estaba en ruinas y al borde de una guerra civil. Sobre Venezuela: Los Cubanos tienen ahí fuerza armada, agentes e inteligencia. Además de que es un Narco Estado. La economía = las personas literalmente se están muriendo de hambre.
factorhack 8y ago
@jules-jules está propagando fake news
jules-jules 8y ago
Posted here mainly in light of the NYTimes article "Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing" that was recently posted here on HN. [1] Also, let's not forget the NYTimes cheered the invasion of Iraq in 2003, and journalists who merely questioned the Iraq War lost their job at the NYTimes, the Dixie Chicks got blacklisted, etc. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19050102 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19050102
- ilaksh 8y ago
  Too much truth in this thread so it was flagged. The HN readership and staff do not want their own bubbles popped.
  - jules-jules 8y ago
    It's ridiculous, that post got 253 points and some 429 mostly uncritical comments. The HN crowd should know better than to uncritically trust the MSM, be it the NYTimes, CNN, or others.
factorhack 8y ago
Media bias. Fake news. From Chile: Allende was declared unconstitutional by the congress. The CIA came into play because the KGB and the Cubans were working here. There was inflation of more than 400%, the communists expropriated and introduced weapons, the country was in ruins and near a civil war. On Venezuela: The Cubans have there: armed force, agents and intelligence. Besides that it is a Narco State. The economy = people are literally dying of hunger.

20 points by jules-jules 8y ago

Why do papers collaborate with the government in this way? I don't see what they would have to gain, it's not like they're getting paid.

randiantech 8y ago
Newspapers shouldnt think if a particular opinion provides "a gain" or not, even if most of the times they act following that principle. Other than that, I dont see a specific support for coups on some of the extracts mentioned in the Article (Argentina, Chile, Brazil).
ilaksh 8y ago
The government can't give them a choice if they want their operations to be successful. Research "the Fourth Estate". When it comes to military operations, either covert or overt, the media coverage actually has to be considered as part of the operation. For this reason intelligence has to have influence with major media and draw hard lines with respect to certain required propaganda. People are going to dismiss that as a conspiracy theory especially with regard to the US, but before you do think about it. Have you ever read about a war where the soldiers were describing their motivation and they talked about strategic objectives? Do soldiers go to war to chanting about "20% More Oil Reserve Control Hoorah!"? No. Because wars involve risking your life and killing others. Because of that, military personnel need moral causes to fight for. If they turn on the news and they start saying that three oil executives are predicting an immediate five percent rise in oil prices if the Venezualan nationalization continues into 2019, is that really going to motivate them to shoot people? No. They need a bad guy. They need to know they are fighting against a bad system and for freedom. It needs to be cut and dry.
phry 8y ago
access to people and information
JamesBarney 8y ago
I don't think the nytimes is trying to back the governments opinion. One the author is cherry picking times when the nytimes supported the government. But I'm sure someone else could find plenty of times when they didn't. Secondly when they made the wrong call, I bet at least part of the reason was 2002 was a less connected time, and there was more trust in government. So if a bunch of government offficials tell the journalist Chavez is a terrible regime. And you happen to know a handful of anti Chavez individuals in Venezuela the journalist could easily make the wrong call.

diego_moita 8y ago

There's a lot of click bait going on in here. A coup in Venezuela wouldn't disrupt a democratic order because there is no democratic order in Venezuela. The article assumes that Maduro is a legitimate President. That is simply not true, there is solid evidence of plenty of fraud on the last election, the rule of the law is long gone in there, the justice courts are puppets of the regime, the legislative is silenced by force. What is at stake here is just whether the military keep supporting the caudillo Maduro or not. Democracy is out of this game already.

bassman9000 8y ago
The Maduro defense is getting ridiculous. https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elecciones_parlamentarias_de_Venezuela_de_2015 https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elecciones_parlamentarias_de_V... The opposition won the elections, 112 to 55 MP, which, AFAIK, are also electors. There was a supposed fraud on a few of them, which, on the other hand, was poorly substantiated, and very likely fake on its own. Sin embargo, apenas una semana después de las declaraciones anteriores, el TSJ difundió oficialmente que había aceptado 7 denuncias de impugnaciones que afectaban a un total de 8 diputados electos para representar a los estados Amazonas, Aragua y Yaracuy,,111 de las cuales 6 fueron posteriormente declaradas improcedentes112 y la séptima aceptada como procedente, consecuentemente siendo declarado por el TSJ que se ordenaba la "suspensión" de los actos de totalización de votos y proclamación de resultados de la elección parlamentaria en todos los circuitos del estado Amazonas,113 afectando a tres diputados electos por la MUD (uno de ellos de la representación indígena por la región sur) y un diputado del PSUV elegido por votación lista.114 Supreme court, nominated by Maduro, then prevents MP from taking oath, which, in effect, makes the assembly non-functional. Maduro then orders the supreme court to install him as president, one more time. If there was a coup, it was a judicial one, by Maduro, in 2015.
trextrex 8y ago
Did you actually read the article? It's about a lot more than just the Venezuelan coup.
- JamesBarney 8y ago

dj_gitmo 8y ago

Establishment media organizations in the Anglo world are so reluctant to criticize of the Government line on anything related to foreign policy. It seems like it would be so easy and risk-free in the current era especially. They're either ignorant of the history of US interference in Latin America, or they're ideologues acting in bad faith. I imaging there is also a strong pressure to go-along to get-along that weeds out anyone who would properly push back. I recommend The Gray Zone Project for a counters-establishment perspective. Like all journalism, you need to know how to read it, but it really does cover foreign policy in a way that NYT cannot. https://grayzoneproject.com/ https://grayzoneproject.com/ If you prefer something more tabloid-y I recommend The Canary. They even have US and UK editions. https://www.thecanary.co/us/ https://www.thecanary.co/us/

jcranmer 8y ago
> Establishment media organizations in the Anglo world are so reluctant to criticize of the Government line on anything related to foreign policy. How did you miss the fact that virtually every US newspaper has criticized the current president's foreign policy on deep breath Syria, Russia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Russia, Iran, North Korea, Russia, Canada, South Korea, Russia, most of our allies, etc? Even before our current president plumbed unheard of depths in foreign policy idiocies, I've long seen criticism of foreign policy. The drone assassination program was a big one. The virtues of the surges in Iraq and Afghanistan was certainly a spirited debate.
- dj_gitmo 8y ago
  I'm not really talking about the current administration. I'm talking about the US government's overall policy of overseas intervention that goes back decades. The press often criticize the government for not intervening, or for exiting an intervention. You're not going to see anyone on the pages of the NYT say that the US shouldn't be intervening in other countries, period. > How did you miss the fact that virtually every US newspaper has criticized the current president's foreign policy on deep breath Syria, Russia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Russia, Iran, North Korea, Russia, Canada, South Korea, Russia, most of our allies, etc? > Syria The press criticized the administration for deciding to leave. Even though the Syrian civil war is basically over and the regime won. Obama was criticized for not "doing enough" even though the Syrian Civil War was the largest CIA operation in decades and the opposition was overwhelmingly made up of sectarian death-squads. Don't take my word for it, read what the NYT's Thomas Friedman said in 2017. He argues we should allow ISIS to continue existing so that it might take down the Assad regime. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/12/opinion/why-is-trump-fighting-isis-in-syria.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/12/opinion/why-is-trump-figh... > Russia The liberal press has been criticized the decision not to ramp up a new cold-war with Russia. They attack anyone who opposes more sanctions. > Iraq The press uncritically promoted the invasion of Iraq and only turned against it when it started going bad. > Afghanistan If the any administration decided to pull out they would be criticized. How about the West's role in Yemen? You didn't hear anything about that in the Anglo press until recently even though the UN was calling it the worst humanitarian disaster in the world. I'm not saying the establishment press is always wrong. They serve an important purpose, but on foreign policy in particular their coverage ranges from good(leaving the Iran deal is bad) to awful(uncritical support for Syrian opposition), and sometimes it's just propaganda.

JamesBarney 8y ago

Summary : America has done a lot of terrible things in South America.(agreed) They tried to depose a lot of legitimate leaders. (agreed) A couple of times the nytimes argued it was the right thing to do when it probably wasn't. (I'll take their word for it.) But none of the article argues that Maduro is a legitimate leader. And I don't know if I buy the argument that because we tried to depose a lot of legitimate leaders in the past with illegitimate ones we should now support an illegitimate leader instead of the legitimate one.

dj_gitmo 8y ago
The question that matters is: Should the US intervene. Let's run down a list of the recent US interventions. Russian Election of 1996: The US helped rig Russia's election in 1996. Electing Yeltsin for a second term is what brought in Putin and basically killed Russian democracy. https://www.globalresearch.ca/us-meddling-in-1996-russian-elections-in-support-of-boris-yeltsin/5568288 https://www.globalresearch.ca/us-meddling-in-1996-russian-el... Iraq: 600,000 dead so far. Libya: It was supposed to turn into a thriving democracy but instead it's now a thriving slave market. https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/14/africa/libya-migrant-auctions/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/14/africa/libya-migrant-auctions... Yemen: Largest humanitarian crisis in the world. The list goes on and on. Things don't get better when the US intervenes. Let Venezuela decide it's own fate.

factorhack 8y ago

Media bias. Desde Chile: Allende fue declarado inconstitucional por el congreso. La CIA entró en juego porque aquí estaba trabajando la KGB y los Cubanos. Había inflación sobre el 400%, los comunistas expropiaron e introdujeron armas, el país estaba en ruinas y al borde de una guerra civil. Sobre Venezuela: Los Cubanos tienen ahí fuerza armada, agentes e inteligencia. Además de que es un Narco Estado. La economía = las personas literalmente se están muriendo de hambre.

factorhack 8y ago

@jules-jules está propagando fake news

jules-jules 8y ago

Posted here mainly in light of the NYTimes article "Want to Stop Fake News? Pay for the Real Thing" that was recently posted here on HN. [1] Also, let's not forget the NYTimes cheered the invasion of Iraq in 2003, and journalists who merely questioned the Iraq War lost their job at the NYTimes, the Dixie Chicks got blacklisted, etc. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19050102 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19050102

ilaksh 8y ago
Too much truth in this thread so it was flagged. The HN readership and staff do not want their own bubbles popped.
- jules-jules 8y ago
  It's ridiculous, that post got 253 points and some 429 mostly uncritical comments. The HN crowd should know better than to uncritically trust the MSM, be it the NYTimes, CNN, or others.

factorhack 8y ago

Media bias. Fake news. From Chile: Allende was declared unconstitutional by the congress. The CIA came into play because the KGB and the Cubans were working here. There was inflation of more than 400%, the communists expropriated and introduced weapons, the country was in ruins and near a civil war. On Venezuela: The Cubans have there: armed force, agents and intelligence. Besides that it is a Narco State. The economy = people are literally dying of hunger.