5 ms·

>Also several well-educated and seemingly intelligent Americans who hold strong racist opinions. But that's another subject. Bring up Muslims or Roma people to

by door5 8y ago

>Also several well-educated and seemingly intelligent Americans who hold strong racist opinions. But that's another subject. Bring up Muslims or Roma people to a European and you'll find this isn't a uniquely American problem.

13of40 8y ago
Whoah there. Just because the parent is painting all Americans with one brush doesn't mean we have to reciprocate.
- Tade0 8y ago
  Then again that bit about the Roma is somewhat accurate. On the other hand majority of the Roma refuse to assimilate, and on a much deeper level than pretty much any immigrant at that, so it's possible to imagine why this prejudice lives on.
  - door5 8y ago
    This is my point though -- European racism is portrayed always somehow "different". It's the exact same story and there are no excuses for it. Anti-Roma prejudice is no more rational or justified than any other prejudice, and it's just as violent and dangerous.
    - marcus_holmes 8y ago
      The same can be said for Australian prejudice against aboriginals. But I've never met a European traveler who expresses an anti-Roma opinion. I've met several US travelers who have expressed some really severe anti-African-American comments. So, yes, the prejudice is probably the same, but the level of hatred, and the willingness to express it, is not.
      - door5 8y ago
        This is anecdotal, the data does not support your claim: http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/12/a-fragile-rebound-for-eu-image-on-eve-of-european-parliament-elections/pg-2014-05-12-eu-0-09/ http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/12/a-fragile-rebound-for-eu...
- door5 8y ago
  The OP said "several", not "all". Racism is undoubtedly a problem in Europe, it's just directed at different groups, and "not ALL..."ing Europeans won't make the problem go away.
- nate_meurer 8y ago
  This comment is truly bizarre. How did you read the parent, and only get that it's "painting all Americans with one brush". It was made perfectly clear by words such as "several" and "lots of". It really could not have been made more clear. It explicitly referred to individuals that marcus has personally met. As an American myself, I find these anecdotal claims totally believable and unsurprising. Seriously, how did your mind manage to filter this so severely?
  - 13of40 8y ago
    Simple: It's like I said I was travelling through Mexico and loudly commented that I was meeting a lot of bike thieves. In the really real world, I'm saying Mexicans are bike thieves. In the weasel words world I'm just commenting out of the blue about the statistically improbable series of nefarious folks I met.
    - nate_meurer 8y ago
      Interesting. So you projected yourself onto someone else's comment, which allowed you to evaluate it strictly and narrowly against your own experiences and programming. You constructed an idealized hypothetical scenario whose wrongness you could specify ("out of the blue" and "improbable"), which thus provides a judgement you can defend somewhat logically. But then you applied that judgement to a completely dissimilar and unrelated comment, made by another person who may or may not resemble you in any way. Your cognitive dissonance was so powerful that it convinced you that marcus_holmes was "painting all Americans with one brush". Not just a personal and anecdotal sample, as stated clearly in his comment, but all Americans. I hope you're at least willing to submit your own speech to the same sort of language-policing. A brief look at your comment history shows that you paint with a similarly broad brush at times: > In fact, a great part of [Christianity in the US] runs counter to the actual teachings of Christ. > It's very weird to me that a society [the U.S] that currently has, for example, a huge anti-gun movement, based on ideas like "every child deserves to grow up in a safe community", would at the same time treat the deaths of 10,000 people as a rounding error. But that's literally how we are. > The ex-Soviets I've talked to about this pretty unanimously relate that they were raised to think the USSR was the best country on earth, just like we are in the US.
ben_w 8y ago
Aye. Although essentially all of my UK friends are relaxed about Muslims, one of those friends stopped believing in Christians[1] because his local church congregation prayed for God to burn down a new mosque. And anti-Gypsy sentiment is so socially normal in the UK that I have only ever witnessed (in person) two people defending them as ‘not a problem’. [1] and possibly Christianity, though I never actually checked.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  Most UK communities have had problems with "travellers" who are identified as "gypsies". These are groups that avoid paying taxes, are associated with unlawfulness. When "gypsy" groups camped in my village as a child they destroyed an area of woodland, left it strewn with litter and faeces. The kids came to our school, threatened people, disrupted lessons, etc.. Now, as an adult, when "gypsies" come to my town they cause masses of damage to the environment, again with the litter everywhere; petty thefts increase in the immediate area, etc.. There are designated sites, but they get trashed, the facilities ruined. And these are people avoiding contributing to local taxation - often materially wealthy (owning several expensive vehicles, mobile homes, etc.), not poor at least. It's nothing to do with being "gypsies" it's antisocial behaviour, not paying taxes but causing large costs; not respecting the environment, particularly leaving mess; not having regard for the property and freedoms of others. Muslims - I've never met one I didn't get on with. But, the more I've learnt of Mohammed, and having read the majority of the Koran and Hadith: I refuse to accept Islam or pay any respect to its founder, he and his invention are truly anathema to me.
m_mueller 8y ago
Those are cultural differences, not genetic ones (for the most part). I think that’s quite a difference as one can adapt over the time span of a couple of generations (or even immediately by strong willed individuals) while race is much more sticky and impossible to shake once you’re born into it. Case in point, when a Roma family settles down, they can in theory just be another Eastern European family to those who don’t know their background. 28 years since the Berlin wall fell, Western European people are now pretty much used to mingling with Eastern Europeans. It’s the hardcore differences in lifestyle that makes a lot of people afraid of others, and those can change - e.g. see the integration of immigrants from Kosovo. I don’t think Syrians who stay will have a much different fate 20y from now.
- whack 8y ago
  FWIW, I don't think cultural discrimination is acceptable either. I've met people who don't bat an eyelid when they hear European accents or southern/Boston/new-York accents, but are openly hostile to those speaking African-American vernacular. Similarly for Mexicans speaking Spanish as well. Also, I've never met a Roma person, but it's my understanding that they can trace their genetic ancestry to Asia, and that they look significantly different compared to the average European. So I'm curious as to your comment about it not being a genetic difference, and that they can easily assimilate if they wanted to?
  - mason55 8y ago
    What’s the difference between cultural discrimination and constructive criticism? Can you complain that the Saudis don’t (didn’t) let women drive or is that cultural discrimination? Anti-FGM campaigns? I’m being intentionally obtuse but there has to be a line somewhere. Or not and people should be free to argue without fear of the label “cultural discrimination”. FWIW I have no idea what the answer is.
    - door5 8y ago
      It depends whether your criticism is informed and empathetic. Are you criticizing to prove that another group is somehow "lesser" or "other", or are you listening to and supporting activists from within those groups? How informed are you on the issue, etc.
Pharmakon 8y ago
There’s also plenty of anti-semitism and good old fashioned prejudice against black people. Truthfully, it’s not so different, just look at the recent Windrush scandal.
- darkpuma 8y ago
  > "There’s also plenty of anti-semitism" If it's anything like that Jeremy Corbyn scandal, I'd say it's just a tad bit overblown..
50656E6973 8y ago
Tribal hatred for "out groups" is a human problem
- door5 8y ago
  Racism is a political problem. It doesn't arise out of some universal flawed human psyche, it arises because certain political structures exist that stratify and marginalize groups of people. In the United States, for example, "whiteness" was an invention that changed over time to include different groups depending on political circumstances. Calling it merely a "human" problem ignores the strong relationship between racism and the legacy of European and American colonialism.
  - malvosenior 8y ago
    Incorrect. Racism is an innate human problem. Every group will have a self preference without massive work to train themselves otherwise. There are a lot of minority groups that look down on other minority groups. It's part of human nature.
    - door5 8y ago
      You're completely ignoring the power relationships involved here. Racism isn't just being selfish or rude towards people of another race, it's an entire political system that props up a certain group of people over another, and it pervades every aspect of our lives. Very very few white people believe, for example, "white people should have more wealth than other groups and that is good", yet they implicitly support a political and economic system that creates that outcome. They deny that whiteness is even a factor in their success or their politics, or they even incorrectly believe that white people are the ones that are worse off.
    - marcus_holmes 8y ago
      Absolute bullshit. Kids play with other kids whatever their skin colour. Then they get taught to treat people differently. Racism is not nearly the problem in the UK (or Europe) that it is in the US.

by door5 8y ago

13of40 8y ago

Whoah there. Just because the parent is painting all Americans with one brush doesn't mean we have to reciprocate.

Tade0 8y ago
Then again that bit about the Roma is somewhat accurate. On the other hand majority of the Roma refuse to assimilate, and on a much deeper level than pretty much any immigrant at that, so it's possible to imagine why this prejudice lives on.
- door5 8y ago
  This is my point though -- European racism is portrayed always somehow "different". It's the exact same story and there are no excuses for it. Anti-Roma prejudice is no more rational or justified than any other prejudice, and it's just as violent and dangerous.
  - marcus_holmes 8y ago
    The same can be said for Australian prejudice against aboriginals. But I've never met a European traveler who expresses an anti-Roma opinion. I've met several US travelers who have expressed some really severe anti-African-American comments. So, yes, the prejudice is probably the same, but the level of hatred, and the willingness to express it, is not.
    - door5 8y ago
      This is anecdotal, the data does not support your claim: http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/12/a-fragile-rebound-for-eu-image-on-eve-of-european-parliament-elections/pg-2014-05-12-eu-0-09/ http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/12/a-fragile-rebound-for-eu...
door5 8y ago
The OP said "several", not "all". Racism is undoubtedly a problem in Europe, it's just directed at different groups, and "not ALL..."ing Europeans won't make the problem go away.
nate_meurer 8y ago
This comment is truly bizarre. How did you read the parent, and only get that it's "painting all Americans with one brush". It was made perfectly clear by words such as "several" and "lots of". It really could not have been made more clear. It explicitly referred to individuals that marcus has personally met. As an American myself, I find these anecdotal claims totally believable and unsurprising. Seriously, how did your mind manage to filter this so severely?
- 13of40 8y ago
  Simple: It's like I said I was travelling through Mexico and loudly commented that I was meeting a lot of bike thieves. In the really real world, I'm saying Mexicans are bike thieves. In the weasel words world I'm just commenting out of the blue about the statistically improbable series of nefarious folks I met.
  - nate_meurer 8y ago
    Interesting. So you projected yourself onto someone else's comment, which allowed you to evaluate it strictly and narrowly against your own experiences and programming. You constructed an idealized hypothetical scenario whose wrongness you could specify ("out of the blue" and "improbable"), which thus provides a judgement you can defend somewhat logically. But then you applied that judgement to a completely dissimilar and unrelated comment, made by another person who may or may not resemble you in any way. Your cognitive dissonance was so powerful that it convinced you that marcus_holmes was "painting all Americans with one brush". Not just a personal and anecdotal sample, as stated clearly in his comment, but all Americans. I hope you're at least willing to submit your own speech to the same sort of language-policing. A brief look at your comment history shows that you paint with a similarly broad brush at times: > In fact, a great part of [Christianity in the US] runs counter to the actual teachings of Christ. > It's very weird to me that a society [the U.S] that currently has, for example, a huge anti-gun movement, based on ideas like "every child deserves to grow up in a safe community", would at the same time treat the deaths of 10,000 people as a rounding error. But that's literally how we are. > The ex-Soviets I've talked to about this pretty unanimously relate that they were raised to think the USSR was the best country on earth, just like we are in the US.

ben_w 8y ago

Aye. Although essentially all of my UK friends are relaxed about Muslims, one of those friends stopped believing in Christians[1] because his local church congregation prayed for God to burn down a new mosque. And anti-Gypsy sentiment is so socially normal in the UK that I have only ever witnessed (in person) two people defending them as ‘not a problem’. [1] and possibly Christianity, though I never actually checked.

pbhjpbhj 8y ago
Most UK communities have had problems with "travellers" who are identified as "gypsies". These are groups that avoid paying taxes, are associated with unlawfulness. When "gypsy" groups camped in my village as a child they destroyed an area of woodland, left it strewn with litter and faeces. The kids came to our school, threatened people, disrupted lessons, etc.. Now, as an adult, when "gypsies" come to my town they cause masses of damage to the environment, again with the litter everywhere; petty thefts increase in the immediate area, etc.. There are designated sites, but they get trashed, the facilities ruined. And these are people avoiding contributing to local taxation - often materially wealthy (owning several expensive vehicles, mobile homes, etc.), not poor at least. It's nothing to do with being "gypsies" it's antisocial behaviour, not paying taxes but causing large costs; not respecting the environment, particularly leaving mess; not having regard for the property and freedoms of others. Muslims - I've never met one I didn't get on with. But, the more I've learnt of Mohammed, and having read the majority of the Koran and Hadith: I refuse to accept Islam or pay any respect to its founder, he and his invention are truly anathema to me.

m_mueller 8y ago

Those are cultural differences, not genetic ones (for the most part). I think that’s quite a difference as one can adapt over the time span of a couple of generations (or even immediately by strong willed individuals) while race is much more sticky and impossible to shake once you’re born into it. Case in point, when a Roma family settles down, they can in theory just be another Eastern European family to those who don’t know their background. 28 years since the Berlin wall fell, Western European people are now pretty much used to mingling with Eastern Europeans. It’s the hardcore differences in lifestyle that makes a lot of people afraid of others, and those can change - e.g. see the integration of immigrants from Kosovo. I don’t think Syrians who stay will have a much different fate 20y from now.

whack 8y ago
FWIW, I don't think cultural discrimination is acceptable either. I've met people who don't bat an eyelid when they hear European accents or southern/Boston/new-York accents, but are openly hostile to those speaking African-American vernacular. Similarly for Mexicans speaking Spanish as well. Also, I've never met a Roma person, but it's my understanding that they can trace their genetic ancestry to Asia, and that they look significantly different compared to the average European. So I'm curious as to your comment about it not being a genetic difference, and that they can easily assimilate if they wanted to?
- mason55 8y ago
  What’s the difference between cultural discrimination and constructive criticism? Can you complain that the Saudis don’t (didn’t) let women drive or is that cultural discrimination? Anti-FGM campaigns? I’m being intentionally obtuse but there has to be a line somewhere. Or not and people should be free to argue without fear of the label “cultural discrimination”. FWIW I have no idea what the answer is.
  - door5 8y ago
    It depends whether your criticism is informed and empathetic. Are you criticizing to prove that another group is somehow "lesser" or "other", or are you listening to and supporting activists from within those groups? How informed are you on the issue, etc.

Pharmakon 8y ago

There’s also plenty of anti-semitism and good old fashioned prejudice against black people. Truthfully, it’s not so different, just look at the recent Windrush scandal.

darkpuma 8y ago
> "There’s also plenty of anti-semitism" If it's anything like that Jeremy Corbyn scandal, I'd say it's just a tad bit overblown..

50656E6973 8y ago

Tribal hatred for "out groups" is a human problem

door5 8y ago
Racism is a political problem. It doesn't arise out of some universal flawed human psyche, it arises because certain political structures exist that stratify and marginalize groups of people. In the United States, for example, "whiteness" was an invention that changed over time to include different groups depending on political circumstances. Calling it merely a "human" problem ignores the strong relationship between racism and the legacy of European and American colonialism.
- malvosenior 8y ago
  Incorrect. Racism is an innate human problem. Every group will have a self preference without massive work to train themselves otherwise. There are a lot of minority groups that look down on other minority groups. It's part of human nature.
  - door5 8y ago
    You're completely ignoring the power relationships involved here. Racism isn't just being selfish or rude towards people of another race, it's an entire political system that props up a certain group of people over another, and it pervades every aspect of our lives. Very very few white people believe, for example, "white people should have more wealth than other groups and that is good", yet they implicitly support a political and economic system that creates that outcome. They deny that whiteness is even a factor in their success or their politics, or they even incorrectly believe that white people are the ones that are worse off.
  - marcus_holmes 8y ago
    Absolute bullshit. Kids play with other kids whatever their skin colour. Then they get taught to treat people differently. Racism is not nearly the problem in the UK (or Europe) that it is in the US.