13 ms·
How I negotiated a software-engineering job offer in Silicon Valley
- crimsonalucard 8y ago200k+ for 2 years experience in the valley? That is crazy. This guy is overpaid. How realistic is this? I work in the valley I have roughly a decade of experience and I am definitely under 200k. Am I getting shafted?
- khazhou 8y agoInterview elsewhere and find out. Seriously, it's the only way to know.
- tru3_power 8y agowhat is your position? 200k isn’t that much these days when you take inflation into account.
- maxxxxx 8y agoThere must be some pockets with insane salaires but for most people 200K is pretty high. How many non-execs really make these high salaries?
- iaw 8y ago"Median Facebook Salary" on Google returns ~$240K/year and I think they're up to 34,000 employees and still making more profit per employee than most companies. Do you think that a $200K/year salary is pretty high for tech in the Bay Area? At a global level $200K/year is very high, but regionally, between tech employees in the and their incumbent landlords, it is not that high.
- bosie 8y agoCan you provide a link to the 240k? I can only find a claim for the total compensation to be 240k
- jldugger 8y agoNote that salary isn't the number being quoted, but Total Compensation. Base salary, Equity, and Bonus. Equity grants -- RSUs -- tend to be quoted as a big allocation vesting over a 4 year period. So roughly, divide by four and hope the stock only goes up to factor it into annual income. Critically, companies offer 'refresher RSUs' to employees on an annual basis to replace expiring equity grants. Which means at year 4, you've reached a steady state of RSU vesting. Because of this, people often tend to just add RSU grant to base without dividing, figuring they'll get a stream of refreshers. Bonus is more discretionary, but basically works like salary. Engineers with TC over 200k is not rare in the bay area. More tricky is people who's equity is pre-IPO; startups often pay low base salary in exchange for equity / lottery tix.
- crimsonalucard 8y agoI don't care much for titles. But you can call me a "senior software engineer." Polyglot. Extensive experience with python and golang. I can do fullstack work as well.
- dclusin 8y agoI have 8yr experience and saw offer for total comp of 225k/yr in bay area. No concurrent offers, non-faang company, publicly traded. Salary is extremely variable is my takeaway.
- xiphias2 8y agoHow good are you in algorithms? At the end interview performance is what really matters, not programming experience. You may day it's not fair, but it's at least a transparent process.
- marssaxman 8y ago"Total comp" is not nearly the same thing as salary.
- xyzzyz 8y agoFor stable, publicly traded companies it is practically the same thing.
- marssaxman 8y agoNo job lasts forever. You will eventually move on. When you do, you will leave un-vested RSUs on the table. That's pay that you will never collect. "Total compensation" is not the same as being paid an actual salary.
- xyzzyz 8y agoUnvested RSUs are not part of "total compensation". Total compensation is obtained by tallying up the cash you get from salary, bonus, and sale (or rather, its value at vest) of all the vested stock you get in each year.
- esoterica 8y agoThat’s why only the annually vesting RSUs are counted in total compensation, not the total grant. If you make 200k base and get 400k/4 years of equity, then your TC is 300k, not 600k.
- crimsonalucard 8y agoAnybody willing to pay me 200k+? I'm a python expert. I know golang. I can do fullstack work but my preference is for the backend. I'm basically a polyglot, willing to do anything from scala, haskell, python, lisp, you name it. I have good fundamentals, and extensive experience diving into and navigating large/old codebases.
- toomuchtodo 8y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19055166 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19055166
- dmode 8y agoIf you have 5+years, 200k+ with equity is a definite possibility
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- mattnewton 8y agoI have 5 years experience and make >200k in total comp at Google at their Mountain View campus. Google was also not the highest number offer when I was interviewing 2 years ago either (but it was the more interesting role + benefits). You should interview :)
- crimsonalucard 8y agoWell, google is different right? They hire the cream of the crop. They don't only hire for experience. They also hire for innate, inborn intelligence. I might get in, but I have to work hard to pass that interview. I'm talking about 200k on average.
- mattnewton 8y agoIdk where you got the idea that being a Google engineer is innate haha, man the marketing and hype around the role is incredible. The “secret” is Google tries to hire smart hardworking people, not divinely ordained superhumans. My advice would be to study hard for the interview and let them figure out whether or not you pass the bar. At the very least it will be good practice for othe interviews and you might be accepted and find a role you really like!
- redditmigrant 8y agoYou get paid what the "market" can afford to pay you. Lots of CEOs whose companies are going nowhere, have gone bankrupt get paid millions.
- minimaxir 8y agoNote that the numbers given in the article are total compensation (including stock), not just salary.
- TuringNYC 8y agoGood point. Is this the committed total comp, or total comp stuck in vesting period during which stock luckily appreciated?
- beefalo 8y agoTotal comp at current valuations. I think all of those companies have 1 year cliff, then monthly vesting
- theptip 8y agoThe yearly TC numbers take the initial RSU grant (that vests over a 4 year period, usually with a 1-year cliff followed by monthly vesting) and divide it by 4 to get the "initial RSU grant options vesting per year". Typically you never want anyone (that you want to keep) to be fully vested, so it's expected that you'll get new grants to top up after a couple years if you're doing OK.
- crimsonalucard 8y agoIs there a way to take a poll how many people are actually getting 200k+ with just 2 years of experience? I truly find this unbelievable.
- joshuamorton 8y agoI'm one of those people at least. Coming up on 2 years, and last year and this year both, I'll see >200k in total compensation. Many of my co-workers are in the same boat.
- pbrb 8y agoMake sure you save as much as you can bud. Wish I had that opportunity so young in career - it will go a looong way for you later in life.
- crimsonalucard 8y agoGoogle is different. If there are places where programmers are actually worth that much, one of them is google.
- mlinsey 8y agoNone of the numbers in the article seem unrealistic to me. Keep in mind the big tech companies (FANG et al) are really a tier above in terms of pay, and also that the numbers given here include both RSUs and a projected performance bonus. If you think this guy/gal is overpaid, well, get a load of this table: https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-facebook-alphabet-most-profitable-companies-per-employee-2017-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-facebook-alphabet-most...
- jedberg 8y agoProfit per employee is not a very good measure of anything, because it depends on how much the company is reinvesting in itself at that time. A much better metric is revenue per employee.
- oh_sigh 8y agoDoes an L3 or L4 at google in the valley make $300k/year? That seems way above normal based on those salary spreadsheets that leaked.
- titanomachy 8y agoSix offers is also well above normal. Most people I've talked to did not have a single competing offer. Salaries normalise over time though, if performance is similar to peers then comp eventually will be as well (meaning other people will get bigger raises).
- tokonami 8y agoIf you're a new hire, getting a $300k/year offer is rare for L3 and possible for L4 if you negotiate. If you've been around for a few years and performed well, it's possible to cross $300k/year as L3/L4 given how much FAANG stocks have grown.
- akhilcacharya 8y agoI know lots of people that get that as new grads. Companies like Facebook, Google, and trading companies do it quite often.
- trhway 8y agoThe key is concurrent offers - until you're Dale Carnegie himself any other negotiating strategy doesn't even come close to the concurrent offers - those companies when pitted 2-3 against each other aren't unheard of to take the modest starting senior engineer offer of 500K all the way to 800K+. This guy pitted the 6 - I dont believe he ended up with just the meager 300K :)
- TuringNYC 8y agoIn NY/SF I remember 1999, it was just like this. In NY I remember 2006, it was just like this. Things spike up or down, but that doesn't mean it wont revert to the mean. Enjoy it while it lasts. Dont get cocky and come to expect it. Definitely dont make long-term commitments assuming it will go on forever.
- Zaheer 8y agoVery realistic. Check out all the submissions on: https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html https://www.levels.fyi/comp.html disclosure: I'm co-founder of levels.fyi
- foundart 8y agoCool website, but I had some difficulty with the pagination control. I sorted by company name and wanted to skip to the middle of the alphabet, but once I skipped to page 5, the control would only provide a button for the next page.
- aportnoy 8y ago>Late last year I interviewed at six top companies in Silicon Valley in six days, and stumbled into six job offers. Misleading. He applied at 20 companies, interviewed at 6, got 6 offers.
- paulcole 8y agoThat's not misleading at all. He doesn't say he applied at 6 companies, it's pretty clear he went 6 for 6 in his interviews.
- sigfubar 8y agoWow. I have 15 years of experience and am making under 220k in NYC. There’s no way I’d have offered that much money for someone with 2 years of experience. It just isn’t worth the price.
- codemac 8y agoYou are underpaid.
- cschep 8y ago220k base + 220k in options a year isn't underpaid. All depends on the options.
- sigfubar 8y agoOptions, in the vast majority of cases, are worthless. We can trade anecdata all day, but each individual's personal stance towards options is shaped by their own experience and the experiences of those who they've worked with. I've never met anyone who made any money off options. With that disclaimer/explainer out of the way, I can say with confidence that I don't factor options into my comp. When an employer gives me options, I say thank you. When they don't, I don't feel upset.
- cschep 8y agoI'm sorry I used the wrong word. I meant RSU's. Actual stock. Not worthless at all.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- jplahn 8y agoI recently finished reading the book Never Split the Difference and I would highly recommend it. It's a slightly different take on the traditional negotiation tropes we've all heard. I've managed to employ many of the techniques in my day to day as a PM with success, but his discussions on salary negotiation resonated with me. I'm sure you can find some notes on the book to derive 50% of the value, but the author's stories and explanations drove it home for me.
- khazhou 8y agoTLDR please?
- dpeck 8y agoIts in the title of the book :)
- jplahn 8y agoI don't know if this really qualifies as TL;DR, but they seem to have captured the high-level points: https://www.freshworks.com/freshsales-crm/sdr-sales-development-reps/summary-of-never-split-the-difference-blog/ https://www.freshworks.com/freshsales-crm/sdr-sales-developm...
- shakestheclown 8y agoInteresting that their suggestion "People often get tired of hearing their own name. Switch tracks and use your name instead." is at odds a bit with Dale Carnegie's "Remember that a person's name is to that person the sweetest and most important sound in any language."
- tejon 8y agoMy name is for getting my attention. Once you have my attention, I enjoy hearing it exactly as much as I enjoy an ongoing fire alarm.
- matchagaucho 8y agoTo put this in bay area perspective, that $300K per year gets broken down as: 42% Tax bracket. Net $180K per year $6K per month in rent/mortgage. Net $108K $3K per month in living expenses. $72K $1K student loans (maybe). Net $60K $1K in insurance (health / renters / home). Net $48K $1K disposable income. Net $36K $8K vacation. Net $28K ( or about $2.3K per month for savings) Not bad. But you can see how bay area cost of living can quickly erode income. Add kids, dependents, cars, transportation, day care, private schools... and it's a net wash (or possibly even net negative with more debt). [EDIT: If we're getting precise here, the effective tax is 38.18% before deductions. The point being that $150K yr is near the poverty line in bay area. $200K is barely enough to survive. $300K is what a FAANG will pay 90 percentile Engineers to ensure they're comfortable]
- akhilcacharya 8y ago> $6K per month in rent/mortgage. Seriously? A 1BR can cost like $2.5k in Sunnyvale. Even in Boston/Cambridge I could get a really nice 1BR for $3.5k max.
- lddemi 8y agopretty fast and loose with the numbers there, don't you think? 6k rent/mortgage + 3k living expenses sounds flat out glamorous.
- zeroonetwothree 8y agoIf you have a family it’s about right if not conservative.
- dmoy 8y agoRight but if there's a family then the tax line item is drastically lower. Like 28% effective, not 42% effective.
- alistairSH 8y agoAnd a $6k vacation! lolol Sure, you can easily spend that amount, but it's hardly a living expense. For a single person, that a long European vacation, with no effort made to control costs.
- B-Con 8y agoWhat are people's experiences around having requiters you submit a competing offer for them to negotiate against it? I've had recruiters tell me they need to see a copy of an offer letter in order to match against it. I assume this is to minimize people lying about competing offers to squeeze a few extra percentage points out of their offer and to give the recruiter maximum negotiation leverage. What response do you get if you just tell them "no"?
- rb2k_ 8y agoTell them that you signed an NDA and can't send them internal paperwork of a competitor. Talking about salary is one thing, but giving them the documents themselves is different.
- titanomachy 8y agoThey absolutely refused to move without a copy of the competing offer. I kept pushing but finally gave up and sent them a screenshot of the offer. They called me within 30 mins offering a 40% increase over their "best and final offer". This was at a top 5 tech company.
- bateman_ 8y agoSo, how much is the interview grind worth to you? A few months work for a shot at 7 figure potential salary over 4 years? Sounds like a deal to me.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- Taylor_OD 8y agoEvery time something like this is posted a, likely very good, engineer who does not live in the Valley post about how overpaid these engineers are. Compensation is heavily dependent on market rates. It's far more difficult to hire a strong senior engineer in the valley than it is in most other cities in the US. Even companies in fairly remote areas can hire a remote developer or pay a SF engineer to relocate for less than what most Valley engineers make. It's not about what you can actually do... It's about what you can do compared to the other available people around you.
- souprock 8y agoHere, I'll break the trend: they are underpaid It's all relative to how much things cost. Suppose one of these engineers wants to buy a home. Here, somebody of similar skill could afford any one of: a. new McMansion b. waterfront property with a boat dock and canal access to the ocean c. canal access for an airboat d. a condo literally on the beach e. 11 acres, sheep, goats, can fire an AR-15 in the backyard For each of the above, I've had a coworker get it. For half those prices, a house within a couple thousand feet of work can be had. An actual house right on the beach seems possible too, perhaps requiring a 30-minute commute in low traffic. That is single-income by the way. So, are these things available? If these would be unaffordable, you're underpaid, no matter how big your dollar figure may be.
- esoterica 8y agoWhy are you using a McMansion and a boat dock as part of the canonical benchmark lifestyle? What if you want to live in a tiny apartment and direct your money towards travel, cars, hobby gear, or index fund shares so you can retire at 35 instead? All these things cost the same whether you live in the Bay Area or rural Kansas, so you’re better off maximizing absolute income even it means living somewhere with expensive real estate.
- kmonsen 8y agoOr even better lets say you want to save 75% of your income for 20 years then do some fun stuff. Suddenly high income/high cost areas look much better.
- titanomachy 8y agoThose salaries seem high compared with the equity, what is your level? Never heard of FB/GOOG L3 making 180k base, although the equity sounds about right (for someone with aggressive and well-planned negotiation). Nice work. I went through the experience recently, although with two offers instead of six... and that was stressful enough! Well worth it in the end, obviously.
- kmonsen 8y agoOne thing to keep in mind is that (in theory, but also from what I have seen in practice) better starting salary at Google will fairly quickly be negated by smaller raises in the future. Same level / performance will be equal after a few years, so the really important thing to work on is (perceived) performance.
- nomel 8y ago> Same level / performance will be equal after a few year For the person who didn't start higher, the difference between those curves is lost income.
- kmonsen 8y agoIt is true, but starting higher and not progressing as quickly can also lead to feeling of broken promises.
- alkibiades 8y agoyes but someone with a 50k equity grant will never make it up versus someone with a 200k one. (yes i’ve seen both)
- kmonsen 8y agoRefreshes will quickly be much more important
- alkibiades 8y agothey actually don’t. you can do the math. people actually usually have a steep income drop off when their initial grant runs out
- kmonsen 8y agoThis is not my experience at all. Refreshes have been much, much larger than initial grant (almost 10x)
- angarg12 8y agoWhat bothers me about this is not the figures, but the feeling that the only thing that matters to increase your salary is competing offers. The more articles I read the more convinced I am that this is by far the most important factor in an offer, including interview performance. Companies seem to rely in a 'wisdom of the crowds' of sorts.
- sershe 8y agoI've had two options last time I negotiated, and I couldn't really tell which project would be better. It's really hard to tell from the outside when the people giving you answers about the good and bad aspects of the job are the people trying to hire you. So in the end I just chose using the money. The not-so-surprising part is that the project is not as good as it was described. The surprising-but-unsurprising part is that the negative aspects are not at all what I would have predicted. Sure, I could have gone with the other company for less money; the odds are, I would have still had no idea beforehand w.r.t. what I'm getting into. Unless one of the teams/offers is obviously better, it's a crapshoot and the money is literally your only reliable data point. If you have to bail in a year (which I never had to do so far), at least you get more out of it.
- galaxyLogic 8y agoYou should strive for a deal that allows you to go independent after a few years. They want to keep you dependent on them of course. I wonder if the practice of law-firms should work for IT, at some point you get an offer for partnership. Otherwise even if you work for Google and all your income is spent on living, including family, then what safety is there for future. You should be working for somebody else in order that at some point you no longer have to work for somebody else.