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You have to have a focus on strong families. If the child has parents or guardians who are aware of what they're doing and will stop them from doing it then the

You have to have a focus on strong families. If the child has parents or guardians who are aware of what they're doing and will stop them from doing it then there wouldn't really be a problem in the first place at least with five year olds

Spooky23 8y ago
So kids who lack strong families are left to the wind to be exploited? Really?
fredley 8y ago
There will always be kids who don't get a strong family, whatever you do. You can certainly reduce this sort of thing (with adequate parental leave, financial parental support and broader societal compassion for parents (hard!)) but you can never reduce it to zero. Because these children are the most vulnerable to begin with, they are the reason protections are required in law against e.g. marketing gambling products and junk food to children.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  You will also always get people targeting kids, even outside of the law. Reducing the number of kids without a family still might be a lot more effective than regulating the world into being as safe as an extended family (although both would be nice).
  - fredley 8y ago
    You still want the law to be there to go after the bad guys though. I agree any sensible solution will incorporate both approaches.
skh 8y ago
Are you sure it’s wise to put the onus solely on the parents? Some kids are born into families with crappy parents. Are they to be exploited at the whim of whatever corporate goal is out there due to their bad luck of having crappy parents? It’s more reasonable to say that parents ought to be on top of things and recognize that not all of them are. Thus it’s best to have other safeguards in place. Like make Facebook liable for its exploitive behavior.
- j16sdiz 8y ago
  In this case (or the online casino case GP was suggesting), the parent should keep his/her credit card safe. How this not the parent's responsibility?
  - skh 8y ago
    Have you ever misplaced something? Have you dealt with kids with curiosity or who desire something without thinking about the consequences? Facebook had an employee who gave the company specific steps it could easily take to prevent children from becoming whales. They refused to do this. Let’s not lose sight of just how shitty the people at Facebook who decided to do this are. This was a deliberate act on their part. The focus ought to be on them.
  - CaptainZapp 8y ago
    Here's the scenario : Kid asks parent if she's allowed to buy 10$ worth of gaming stuff Parent agrees, enters cc info, which is stored by FB without any warning Games are designed in a way that you just click some cuddly icon without even realizing that you spend real money That's not just only the darkest of patterns it's also geared towards vulnerable kids. Intentionally and by design. In my book we're slowly in executives should wind up in jail territory when it comes to this evil carbunkel of a company without any morals, whatsoever.
    - xienze 8y ago
      > Kid asks parent if she's allowed to buy 10$ worth of gaming stuff So, stop right here. The solution is for parents to take a look at what their kids are playing and refuse to let them play F2P stuff. Mine aren't allowed anywhere near F2P games for the very reasons you outlined. If you let them play F2P games, you know that inevitably the "pay" part is going to rear its ugly head repeatedly, even with perfectly-implemented controls that prevent the kid from taking your credit card for a ride. Every damn day they're going to ask you to buy that stupid in-game currency. Just say no before it ever starts. Otherwise, good luck.
untog 8y ago
Sounds like it would be about as successful as abstinence only sex education. The reason we end up with laws covering stuff like this is because it's a lot easier to do that than fix the whole of society. I don't think anyone disagrees that every child having a caring and attentive parent would solve a lot of problems, but how do we get there? While we work that out, we can pass some laws to protect those children.
CaptainZapp 8y ago
The problem with that thinking was that those games were engineered in a way, where those kids couldn't even realize that they got fleeced for real money. And Facebook handsomely and intentionally profited from that.
seandougall 8y ago
Did you read the article before launching straight into victim blaming? It’s not about supervision, it’s about dark patterns. Parents were aware of what their kids were doing, but weren’t aware of what FB was doing.
ardy42 8y ago
> You have to have a focus on strong families. If the child has parents or guardians who are aware of what they're doing and will stop them from doing it then there wouldn't really be a problem in the first place at least with five year olds You're half right. We have to focus on strong families who would raise kids who, as adults, will have a strong enough moral compass to 1) say no to being involved in stuff like this stuff at Facebook, 2) blow the whistle when they find out about it, and 3) take urgent action when they hear the whistle being blown.

Spooky23 8y ago

So kids who lack strong families are left to the wind to be exploited? Really?

fredley 8y ago

There will always be kids who don't get a strong family, whatever you do. You can certainly reduce this sort of thing (with adequate parental leave, financial parental support and broader societal compassion for parents (hard!)) but you can never reduce it to zero. Because these children are the most vulnerable to begin with, they are the reason protections are required in law against e.g. marketing gambling products and junk food to children.

whatshisface 8y ago
You will also always get people targeting kids, even outside of the law. Reducing the number of kids without a family still might be a lot more effective than regulating the world into being as safe as an extended family (although both would be nice).
- fredley 8y ago
  You still want the law to be there to go after the bad guys though. I agree any sensible solution will incorporate both approaches.

skh 8y ago

Are you sure it’s wise to put the onus solely on the parents? Some kids are born into families with crappy parents. Are they to be exploited at the whim of whatever corporate goal is out there due to their bad luck of having crappy parents? It’s more reasonable to say that parents ought to be on top of things and recognize that not all of them are. Thus it’s best to have other safeguards in place. Like make Facebook liable for its exploitive behavior.

j16sdiz 8y ago
In this case (or the online casino case GP was suggesting), the parent should keep his/her credit card safe. How this not the parent's responsibility?
- skh 8y ago
  Have you ever misplaced something? Have you dealt with kids with curiosity or who desire something without thinking about the consequences? Facebook had an employee who gave the company specific steps it could easily take to prevent children from becoming whales. They refused to do this. Let’s not lose sight of just how shitty the people at Facebook who decided to do this are. This was a deliberate act on their part. The focus ought to be on them.
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  Here's the scenario : Kid asks parent if she's allowed to buy 10$ worth of gaming stuff Parent agrees, enters cc info, which is stored by FB without any warning Games are designed in a way that you just click some cuddly icon without even realizing that you spend real money That's not just only the darkest of patterns it's also geared towards vulnerable kids. Intentionally and by design. In my book we're slowly in executives should wind up in jail territory when it comes to this evil carbunkel of a company without any morals, whatsoever.
  - xienze 8y ago
    > Kid asks parent if she's allowed to buy 10$ worth of gaming stuff So, stop right here. The solution is for parents to take a look at what their kids are playing and refuse to let them play F2P stuff. Mine aren't allowed anywhere near F2P games for the very reasons you outlined. If you let them play F2P games, you know that inevitably the "pay" part is going to rear its ugly head repeatedly, even with perfectly-implemented controls that prevent the kid from taking your credit card for a ride. Every damn day they're going to ask you to buy that stupid in-game currency. Just say no before it ever starts. Otherwise, good luck.

untog 8y ago

Sounds like it would be about as successful as abstinence only sex education. The reason we end up with laws covering stuff like this is because it's a lot easier to do that than fix the whole of society. I don't think anyone disagrees that every child having a caring and attentive parent would solve a lot of problems, but how do we get there? While we work that out, we can pass some laws to protect those children.

CaptainZapp 8y ago

The problem with that thinking was that those games were engineered in a way, where those kids couldn't even realize that they got fleeced for real money. And Facebook handsomely and intentionally profited from that.

seandougall 8y ago

Did you read the article before launching straight into victim blaming? It’s not about supervision, it’s about dark patterns. Parents were aware of what their kids were doing, but weren’t aware of what FB was doing.

ardy42 8y ago

> You have to have a focus on strong families. If the child has parents or guardians who are aware of what they're doing and will stop them from doing it then there wouldn't really be a problem in the first place at least with five year olds You're half right. We have to focus on strong families who would raise kids who, as adults, will have a strong enough moral compass to 1) say no to being involved in stuff like this stuff at Facebook, 2) blow the whistle when they find out about it, and 3) take urgent action when they hear the whistle being blown.