3 ms·

Free trade is a socially acceptable excuse Brexit voters can use to mask the real reasons they voted to leave. As is sovereignty.

raxxorrax 8y ago
I don't get the ridicule the argument about sovereignty is exposed to. Of course that is one of the most important discussion within the European Union. You can argue that external forces decrease the room for maneuvers for a single nation. Just as you can argue that member states have the tendency to fiercely guard sovereignty anyway and did so in the past. Nothing to say against that. But to say that sovereignty is not an important issue to discuss within the European Union isn't an informed position at all. Most new laws are enacted by the EU in most member states.
- louisswiss 8y ago
  Setting aside the fact that the UK has a veto over pretty much any important EU decision... > Of course that is one of the most important discussion within the European Union. Is it? Why? > Nothing to say against that. Why should the sovereignty of the UK be paramount? Why not the sovereignty of (for example) London, Cornwall or Scotland? The UK is a mix of geographically-close former countries, inhabited by people with different backgrounds who speak different native languages and used to be at war with each other. I fail to see why the UK should have any greater claim to sovereignty than the EU or a subsection of the UK... > Most new laws are enacted by the EU in most member states. No idea if that's true, but I do know that the vast majority of laws enacted by the EU are done so because it is more beneficial for the UK (and other member states) if the EU enacts them as opposed to each EU state enacting their own version. Much simpler when it comes to trade etc.
  - blibble 8y ago
    > Setting aside the fact that the UK has a veto over pretty much any important EU decision... this is not a fact at all, Lisbon removed the veto from nearly every area, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_the_Council_of_the_European_Union#Policy_areas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_the_Council_of_the_E...
    - louisswiss 8y ago
      Pretty much all of the important stuff is still covered (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_the_Council_of_the_European_Union#Unanimity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_the_Council_of_the_E...) To argue otherwise would be akin to arguing that the UK parliament isn't sovereign because local councils can make some local decisions independently. EDIT (To reply to the comment below): If you read the information in the link posted, it's obvious that the important decisions still require unanimity, even if minor decisions (yes, some of them in important fields) now only require QMV. FWIW, I'm a fan of QMV.
      - blibble 8y ago
        that very much depends on your definition of "important" personally I would call employment, business, immigration, social security, criminal law, and half a dozen things listed there as important, but there you go
        blibble 8y ago
        what's wrong with the reply button? > If you read the information in the link posted, it's obvious that the important decisions still require unanimity, even if minor decisions (yes, some of them in important fields) now only require QMV. not true (again)... might be true most of the time, but not always (which is the entire problem) see the fuss over the past two years where eastern european countries were forced over their explicit objections to accept migrant quotas using QMV
vilifiedtwin 8y ago
People dislike the idea of the UE turning into United States of Europe with a Soviet style super-government.
- louisswiss 8y ago
  People also dislike the idea of the EU forcing every child to eat a kilogram of french cheese every morning before school. Luckily, neither is likely to happen and - even if it were proposed - the UK has the power to veto it ever happening. assuming we are in the EU. if we're outside, we just watch and weep.
  - vilifiedtwin 8y ago
    Veto is going to be dismantled sooner or later. There are plans to scrap veto for tax policy. Furthermore if there will be no veto and the citizens would dislike the new legislation there will be new EU army to keep people in check.
growlist 8y ago
If you think Leave voters are worried about looking politically correct, I think you haven't met many Leave voters.

raxxorrax 8y ago

I don't get the ridicule the argument about sovereignty is exposed to. Of course that is one of the most important discussion within the European Union. You can argue that external forces decrease the room for maneuvers for a single nation. Just as you can argue that member states have the tendency to fiercely guard sovereignty anyway and did so in the past. Nothing to say against that. But to say that sovereignty is not an important issue to discuss within the European Union isn't an informed position at all. Most new laws are enacted by the EU in most member states.

louisswiss 8y ago
Setting aside the fact that the UK has a veto over pretty much any important EU decision... > Of course that is one of the most important discussion within the European Union. Is it? Why? > Nothing to say against that. Why should the sovereignty of the UK be paramount? Why not the sovereignty of (for example) London, Cornwall or Scotland? The UK is a mix of geographically-close former countries, inhabited by people with different backgrounds who speak different native languages and used to be at war with each other. I fail to see why the UK should have any greater claim to sovereignty than the EU or a subsection of the UK... > Most new laws are enacted by the EU in most member states. No idea if that's true, but I do know that the vast majority of laws enacted by the EU are done so because it is more beneficial for the UK (and other member states) if the EU enacts them as opposed to each EU state enacting their own version. Much simpler when it comes to trade etc.
- blibble 8y ago
  > Setting aside the fact that the UK has a veto over pretty much any important EU decision... this is not a fact at all, Lisbon removed the veto from nearly every area, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_the_Council_of_the_European_Union#Policy_areas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_the_Council_of_the_E...
  - louisswiss 8y ago
    Pretty much all of the important stuff is still covered (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_the_Council_of_the_European_Union#Unanimity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_the_Council_of_the_E...) To argue otherwise would be akin to arguing that the UK parliament isn't sovereign because local councils can make some local decisions independently. EDIT (To reply to the comment below): If you read the information in the link posted, it's obvious that the important decisions still require unanimity, even if minor decisions (yes, some of them in important fields) now only require QMV. FWIW, I'm a fan of QMV.
    - blibble 8y ago
      that very much depends on your definition of "important" personally I would call employment, business, immigration, social security, criminal law, and half a dozen things listed there as important, but there you go
      - blibble 8y ago
        what's wrong with the reply button? > If you read the information in the link posted, it's obvious that the important decisions still require unanimity, even if minor decisions (yes, some of them in important fields) now only require QMV. not true (again)... might be true most of the time, but not always (which is the entire problem) see the fuss over the past two years where eastern european countries were forced over their explicit objections to accept migrant quotas using QMV

vilifiedtwin 8y ago

People dislike the idea of the UE turning into United States of Europe with a Soviet style super-government.

louisswiss 8y ago
People also dislike the idea of the EU forcing every child to eat a kilogram of french cheese every morning before school. Luckily, neither is likely to happen and - even if it were proposed - the UK has the power to veto it ever happening. assuming we are in the EU. if we're outside, we just watch and weep.
- vilifiedtwin 8y ago
  Veto is going to be dismantled sooner or later. There are plans to scrap veto for tax policy. Furthermore if there will be no veto and the citizens would dislike the new legislation there will be new EU army to keep people in check.

growlist 8y ago

If you think Leave voters are worried about looking politically correct, I think you haven't met many Leave voters.