5 ms·

> considering their ongoing Brexit One of the big campaigns for Leave was that the EU was dampening our ability to trade with the rest of the World. I guess ma

> considering their ongoing Brexit One of the big campaigns for Leave was that the EU was dampening our ability to trade with the rest of the World. I guess maybe not then?

ovi256 8y ago
Do not mistake campaign arguments for facts. They're more of the "arguments as soldiers" variety. It's rational to only care how effective they are at influencing public oppinion, they're not peer reviewed publications.
- benj111 8y ago
  Where do you stand morally? You may be right, but it's not right
  - ovi256 8y ago
    It doesn't matter where one stands. If you want to fight against, say, the people that run campaigns, you'll have to fight in their chosen arena, that of public oppinion and elections. It's empirically found effective to use "arguments as soldiers" in that arena. If we chose policies through a peer-reviewed search for truth, we wouldn't have this discussion.
    - benj111 8y ago
      But then it becomes a race to the bottom. So I think you need some enforcement of standards, whether moral or legal.
      - ovi256 8y ago
        And to enforce standards, you better win some elections, right ? And how are you going to win them ?
coldtea 8y ago
Let's see in 10 years.
NeedMoreTea 8y ago
One of the realisations from after the result was Leave had no plan at all. Nothing admissible or written. I'm sure Rees Mogg had a plan, but it wouldn't have won votes, so that's staying in his head. The Scottish Independence referendum had a plan running to hundreds of pages. Good bits and bad bits, but a good few people had put thought into what came next. Leave had a bus, with a slogan.
- ddalex 8y ago
  slogan >> plan sadly visible all over the world
- pluma 8y ago
  > Leave had a bus, with a slogan. Not just any slogan, a slogan that was blatantly misleading to say the least.
louisswiss 8y ago
Free trade is a socially acceptable excuse Brexit voters can use to mask the real reasons they voted to leave. As is sovereignty.
- raxxorrax 8y ago
  I don't get the ridicule the argument about sovereignty is exposed to. Of course that is one of the most important discussion within the European Union. You can argue that external forces decrease the room for maneuvers for a single nation. Just as you can argue that member states have the tendency to fiercely guard sovereignty anyway and did so in the past. Nothing to say against that. But to say that sovereignty is not an important issue to discuss within the European Union isn't an informed position at all. Most new laws are enacted by the EU in most member states.
  - louisswiss 8y ago
    Setting aside the fact that the UK has a veto over pretty much any important EU decision... > Of course that is one of the most important discussion within the European Union. Is it? Why? > Nothing to say against that. Why should the sovereignty of the UK be paramount? Why not the sovereignty of (for example) London, Cornwall or Scotland? The UK is a mix of geographically-close former countries, inhabited by people with different backgrounds who speak different native languages and used to be at war with each other. I fail to see why the UK should have any greater claim to sovereignty than the EU or a subsection of the UK... > Most new laws are enacted by the EU in most member states. No idea if that's true, but I do know that the vast majority of laws enacted by the EU are done so because it is more beneficial for the UK (and other member states) if the EU enacts them as opposed to each EU state enacting their own version. Much simpler when it comes to trade etc.
    - blibble 8y ago
      > Setting aside the fact that the UK has a veto over pretty much any important EU decision... this is not a fact at all, Lisbon removed the veto from nearly every area, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_the_Council_of_the_European_Union#Policy_areas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_the_Council_of_the_E...

> considering their ongoing Brexit One of the big campaigns for Leave was that the EU was dampening our ability to trade with the rest of the World. I guess maybe not then?

ovi256 8y ago

Do not mistake campaign arguments for facts. They're more of the "arguments as soldiers" variety. It's rational to only care how effective they are at influencing public oppinion, they're not peer reviewed publications.

benj111 8y ago
Where do you stand morally? You may be right, but it's not right
- ovi256 8y ago
  It doesn't matter where one stands. If you want to fight against, say, the people that run campaigns, you'll have to fight in their chosen arena, that of public oppinion and elections. It's empirically found effective to use "arguments as soldiers" in that arena. If we chose policies through a peer-reviewed search for truth, we wouldn't have this discussion.
  - benj111 8y ago
    But then it becomes a race to the bottom. So I think you need some enforcement of standards, whether moral or legal.
    - ovi256 8y ago
      And to enforce standards, you better win some elections, right ? And how are you going to win them ?

coldtea 8y ago

Let's see in 10 years.

NeedMoreTea 8y ago

One of the realisations from after the result was Leave had no plan at all. Nothing admissible or written. I'm sure Rees Mogg had a plan, but it wouldn't have won votes, so that's staying in his head. The Scottish Independence referendum had a plan running to hundreds of pages. Good bits and bad bits, but a good few people had put thought into what came next. Leave had a bus, with a slogan.

ddalex 8y ago
slogan >> plan sadly visible all over the world
pluma 8y ago
> Leave had a bus, with a slogan. Not just any slogan, a slogan that was blatantly misleading to say the least.

louisswiss 8y ago

Free trade is a socially acceptable excuse Brexit voters can use to mask the real reasons they voted to leave. As is sovereignty.

raxxorrax 8y ago
I don't get the ridicule the argument about sovereignty is exposed to. Of course that is one of the most important discussion within the European Union. You can argue that external forces decrease the room for maneuvers for a single nation. Just as you can argue that member states have the tendency to fiercely guard sovereignty anyway and did so in the past. Nothing to say against that. But to say that sovereignty is not an important issue to discuss within the European Union isn't an informed position at all. Most new laws are enacted by the EU in most member states.
- louisswiss 8y ago
  Setting aside the fact that the UK has a veto over pretty much any important EU decision... > Of course that is one of the most important discussion within the European Union. Is it? Why? > Nothing to say against that. Why should the sovereignty of the UK be paramount? Why not the sovereignty of (for example) London, Cornwall or Scotland? The UK is a mix of geographically-close former countries, inhabited by people with different backgrounds who speak different native languages and used to be at war with each other. I fail to see why the UK should have any greater claim to sovereignty than the EU or a subsection of the UK... > Most new laws are enacted by the EU in most member states. No idea if that's true, but I do know that the vast majority of laws enacted by the EU are done so because it is more beneficial for the UK (and other member states) if the EU enacts them as opposed to each EU state enacting their own version. Much simpler when it comes to trade etc.
  - blibble 8y ago
    > Setting aside the fact that the UK has a veto over pretty much any important EU decision... this is not a fact at all, Lisbon removed the veto from nearly every area, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_the_Council_of_the_European_Union#Policy_areas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_the_Council_of_the_E...