6 ms·

I've imagined a world where prisons and homeless shelters look almost identical, save the prisons don't allow you to leave.

ljf 8y ago
Look into prisons in Denmark - far closer to hostels or even universities halls of residence. So much so that they encourage you people to live in them too.
- beaconstudios 8y ago
  this seems more humanitarian, but doesn't it reduce the disincentive to commit another crime, especially for people from unstable or low-income backgrounds where the prison may be more pleasant than home? Most prisons around the world seem to be far too inhumane but I can't help but wonder if you can go too far in the other direction.
  - Aeolun 8y ago
    I mean, if you want to go back to prison you likely aren’t going to commit a violent crime (even if you did for your initial visit), so that’s a win.
  - Filligree 8y ago
    You can't leave. That's the disincentive.
    - Markoff 8y ago
      you can leave minimum security prisons in many countries and basically go there just to do mandatory sleep
  - pluma 8y ago
    Please watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYj_FPT90cM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYj_FPT90cM (it's about Norway, which has very humanitarian prisons) The short version is that a naive comparison shows that recidivism in Norway is much lower than in the US, a more thorough comparison shows that recidivism is actually not so different. But either way, making prisons worse doesn't actually help fighting crime. So the decision whether prisoners should be treated humanely or not is more about ideology than effectiveness. And personally I think humans should be treated humanely, no matter what they did.
    - beaconstudios 8y ago
      I think you may have missed my point. What I'm saying is, between a horrible prison and the Ritz, what's the optimum point so as to treat prisoners as humanely as possible without becoming an actively inviting environment? It's only logical to balance the moral responsibility to preserve human dignity with the risk of creating perverse incentives.
      - pluma 8y ago
        > It's only logical to balance the moral responsibility to preserve human dignity I don't know, the American prison system doesn't seem to consider that a high importance. The problem in Japan seems to be that the not-even-actually-nice prison system still trumps the conditions under which those pensioners apparently live. If your prison system is not a complete nightmare and people seem to be intentionally getting themselves imprisoned the right solution isn't to make the prisons worse, it's to fix the social problems that are making people prefer going to prison (i.e. in this case: loneliness, societal neglect, poverty and shame).
        beaconstudios 8y ago
        > I don't know, the American prison system doesn't seem to consider that a high importance. I'm not here to defend the American prison system - I'm talking more generally. > f your prison system is not a complete nightmare and people seem to be intentionally getting themselves imprisoned the right solution isn't to make the prisons worse, it's to fix the social problems that are making people prefer going to prison (i.e. in this case: loneliness, societal neglect, poverty and shame). Obviously that's the ideal, but it's literally impossible. How is the government (or whichever organisation) going to solve all its citizens' personal problems? If we lived in a world where all people's personal problems were taken care of, prisons would be barely needed.
        Phenix88be 8y ago
        > How is the government (or whichever organisation) going to solve all its citizens' personal problems? Money ?
claudiawerner 8y ago
“Is it surprising that the cellular prison, with its regular chronologies, forced labour, its authorities of surveillance and registration, its experts in normality, who continue and multiply the functions of the judge, should have become the modern instrument of penality? Is it surprising that prisons resemble factories, schools, barracks, hospitals, which all resemble prisons?” - Michel Foucault

ljf 8y ago

Look into prisons in Denmark - far closer to hostels or even universities halls of residence. So much so that they encourage you people to live in them too.

beaconstudios 8y ago
this seems more humanitarian, but doesn't it reduce the disincentive to commit another crime, especially for people from unstable or low-income backgrounds where the prison may be more pleasant than home? Most prisons around the world seem to be far too inhumane but I can't help but wonder if you can go too far in the other direction.
- Aeolun 8y ago
  I mean, if you want to go back to prison you likely aren’t going to commit a violent crime (even if you did for your initial visit), so that’s a win.
- Filligree 8y ago
  You can't leave. That's the disincentive.
  - Markoff 8y ago
    you can leave minimum security prisons in many countries and basically go there just to do mandatory sleep
- pluma 8y ago
  Please watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYj_FPT90cM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYj_FPT90cM (it's about Norway, which has very humanitarian prisons) The short version is that a naive comparison shows that recidivism in Norway is much lower than in the US, a more thorough comparison shows that recidivism is actually not so different. But either way, making prisons worse doesn't actually help fighting crime. So the decision whether prisoners should be treated humanely or not is more about ideology than effectiveness. And personally I think humans should be treated humanely, no matter what they did.
  - beaconstudios 8y ago
    I think you may have missed my point. What I'm saying is, between a horrible prison and the Ritz, what's the optimum point so as to treat prisoners as humanely as possible without becoming an actively inviting environment? It's only logical to balance the moral responsibility to preserve human dignity with the risk of creating perverse incentives.
    - pluma 8y ago
      > It's only logical to balance the moral responsibility to preserve human dignity I don't know, the American prison system doesn't seem to consider that a high importance. The problem in Japan seems to be that the not-even-actually-nice prison system still trumps the conditions under which those pensioners apparently live. If your prison system is not a complete nightmare and people seem to be intentionally getting themselves imprisoned the right solution isn't to make the prisons worse, it's to fix the social problems that are making people prefer going to prison (i.e. in this case: loneliness, societal neglect, poverty and shame).
      - beaconstudios 8y ago
        > I don't know, the American prison system doesn't seem to consider that a high importance. I'm not here to defend the American prison system - I'm talking more generally. > f your prison system is not a complete nightmare and people seem to be intentionally getting themselves imprisoned the right solution isn't to make the prisons worse, it's to fix the social problems that are making people prefer going to prison (i.e. in this case: loneliness, societal neglect, poverty and shame). Obviously that's the ideal, but it's literally impossible. How is the government (or whichever organisation) going to solve all its citizens' personal problems? If we lived in a world where all people's personal problems were taken care of, prisons would be barely needed.
        Phenix88be 8y ago
        > How is the government (or whichever organisation) going to solve all its citizens' personal problems? Money ?

claudiawerner 8y ago

“Is it surprising that the cellular prison, with its regular chronologies, forced labour, its authorities of surveillance and registration, its experts in normality, who continue and multiply the functions of the judge, should have become the modern instrument of penality? Is it surprising that prisons resemble factories, schools, barracks, hospitals, which all resemble prisons?” - Michel Foucault