3 ms·

> An army of Stalkers should NEVER beat an army of Immortals. That happens. Not often, but it happens. The size of the armies is the issue. They happened to bo

> An army of Stalkers should NEVER beat an army of Immortals. That happens. Not often, but it happens. The size of the armies is the issue. They happened to both be large and the better your ability to track life and micro, the better your chances at winning with stalkers. There are replays with 5v2 immortal fights that they lose, right? I've seen blinkstalkers blink out between the immortal Rate of Fire recovery plenty...ok. It just happens the AI showcased the issue in a larger fight. The game is still starcraft, it's just there's an obvious issue that needs to be worked on within the game (immortal blasts would disable special abilities from being toggled/used in a tiny aoe, is the obvious fix). The hyperbole about it not being Starcraft is just wrong. Micro is part of starcraft.

dragontamer 8y ago
> The game is still starcraft, it's just there's an obvious issue that needs to be worked on within the game (immortal blasts would disable special abilities from being toggled/used in a tiny aoe, is the obvious fix). Starcraft II wasn't designed to play at this level. The 4 vs 2 trick is cute, but no human can perform blink-stalker micro on a mass scale like Match4 AlphaStar. https://youtu.be/L0FvTQ3W-wQ?t=633 https://youtu.be/L0FvTQ3W-wQ?t=633 No human would be able to perform the Blink-stalker strategy between 3 groups of Stalkers across the map, like what goes on over there. Mana's Immortal + Zealot army base is clearly superior from a composition perspective. Against any human, Mana's Immortals+Zealots would have won. Period. Its not just the "Blink-Stalkers", but notice how AlphaStar's Stalkers explicitly avoid attacking Zealots and focus fire on Immortals instead. That entire section is clearly super-human levels of micro. Yeah, humans can perform these feats at like 4 vs 2 situations, or small scale experiments. But no pro can do it at the scale or accuracy that AlphaStar did. Seriously, watch the match. Its super-human micro to a degree I've never seen before. ---------- Look, I'm not saying it was a complete failure. I recognize that the AlphaStar team went to great lengths to implement APM-caps and reaction-speed caps (iirc: the entire game was being played at 350ms of latency from AlphaStar's perspective, so it wouldn't have super-human reaction speeds). But these caps were insufficient. The AlphaStar team needs to develop new metrics to make the AI play more "strategic" rather than brute-forcing micro like it does here. I dunno, maybe AlphaStar needs to be capped at 100apm and have 500ms of latency instead. Or maybe new metrics ("effective APM") or APM-burst metrics need to be developed. Its an issue the AlphaStar team needs to work around for sure. As it is, AlphaStar is playing with superhuman micro, even with the APM and Latency caps.
- Joakal 8y ago
  Actions should only be done if its on screen. It sounds like the AI has everything on screen.

dragontamer 8y ago

> The game is still starcraft, it's just there's an obvious issue that needs to be worked on within the game (immortal blasts would disable special abilities from being toggled/used in a tiny aoe, is the obvious fix). Starcraft II wasn't designed to play at this level. The 4 vs 2 trick is cute, but no human can perform blink-stalker micro on a mass scale like Match4 AlphaStar. https://youtu.be/L0FvTQ3W-wQ?t=633 https://youtu.be/L0FvTQ3W-wQ?t=633 No human would be able to perform the Blink-stalker strategy between 3 groups of Stalkers across the map, like what goes on over there. Mana's Immortal + Zealot army base is clearly superior from a composition perspective. Against any human, Mana's Immortals+Zealots would have won. Period. Its not just the "Blink-Stalkers", but notice how AlphaStar's Stalkers explicitly avoid attacking Zealots and focus fire on Immortals instead. That entire section is clearly super-human levels of micro. Yeah, humans can perform these feats at like 4 vs 2 situations, or small scale experiments. But no pro can do it at the scale or accuracy that AlphaStar did. Seriously, watch the match. Its super-human micro to a degree I've never seen before. ---------- Look, I'm not saying it was a complete failure. I recognize that the AlphaStar team went to great lengths to implement APM-caps and reaction-speed caps (iirc: the entire game was being played at 350ms of latency from AlphaStar's perspective, so it wouldn't have super-human reaction speeds). But these caps were insufficient. The AlphaStar team needs to develop new metrics to make the AI play more "strategic" rather than brute-forcing micro like it does here. I dunno, maybe AlphaStar needs to be capped at 100apm and have 500ms of latency instead. Or maybe new metrics ("effective APM") or APM-burst metrics need to be developed. Its an issue the AlphaStar team needs to work around for sure. As it is, AlphaStar is playing with superhuman micro, even with the APM and Latency caps.

Joakal 8y ago
Actions should only be done if its on screen. It sounds like the AI has everything on screen.