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I don’t know how I feel about this. On the one hand Facebook is working around Apple’s terms and conditions, and enticing underage kids to compromise their phon

I don’t know how I feel about this. On the one hand Facebook is working around Apple’s terms and conditions, and enticing underage kids to compromise their phones. On the other hand, there’s no law broken here, Apple’s terms and conditions are not generally fair to users, and the kids know all of their data is being tracked for money ( and presumably are happy with it). Plus, freedom to use the personal device you bought as you see fit is preferred to Apple deciding what you can and cannot have on your phone. So, how should I feel about this?

joshstrange 8y ago
> kids know all of their data is being tracked for money ( and presumably are happy with it) Do they though? Do they really understand what it means? Do they understand that that nude they sent to their GF/BF is now on a FB server and FB has FULL rights to have and use that (obviously not publish it but still)? Do they just not care? I really don't know, the last question kind of terrifies me TBH. My hope is they don't fully understand what they are giving up and "$20 is $20".
- glitchc 8y ago
  It’s hard to gauge how much they really understand, but it’s also hard to gauge how much it really matters. I mean most of the data coming out of them is noise, really. They’re not buying houses or making major financial transactions. If this is worth doing, then $20 may even be their primary source of income, and there may not be too many legitimate ways of earning that income at that age, especially passively. Sounds like AllAdvantage.com (I had to look that up again) all over again. They tracked your internet usage and paid you money for it. My friends and I thought it was a good deal and had no compunctions about gaming it. I’m sure these kids are thinking the same thing, and our moral outrage is self-inflicted.
bellerose 8y ago
To me this is a reflection of society at this point. Monitoring & tracking of online activity was something to be avoided when I was young. I can only assume something like this would harm the reputation back then and people would go elsewhere. Although, $20 per month makes me wonder if my past self would have cared and all my info would be data mined. I doubt in the end I went unexploited in some way and likely I missed out on little money that's now being offered because of more secure devices.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  That’s a good point! If you use Facebook they already know more about you than you do. Might as well take $20 a month. I’m still waiting for my kickback from the in-message advertising I get in Instagram.
  - Tepix 8y ago
    Not sure if you are serious. I am very aware of data I share with Facebook. I take measures to prevent them from getting data about me elsewhere. Giving up close 100% of privacy just because you are currently giving up, say, 20% of privacy seems insane. It's like saying "let's throw all our plastic in the countryside because some people are littering already".
TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
Does not illegal equal good? What about the massive information asymmetry? How about the power imbalance? Is it possible for Facebook to have good intentions that lead to positive outcomes, or is everything they touch toxic? I think maybe we can have more than one opinion simultaneously. I really like some of Facebook’s features, and Apple has some good things going for it. And it’s definitely fair to criticise both for their shortcomings.
- rsln-s 8y ago
  Good point. This _should_ be illegal. And there is definitely a need for better data protection legislation, to protect consumers against exactly this power imbalance.
zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago
> and the kids know all of their data is being tracked for money ( and presumably are happy with it). Yeah, obviously, kids are very good at understanding the consequences of their actions. I mean, imagine if they didn't! We would need special rules in criminal law for dealing with young offenders or something!
dannyr 8y ago
> Slavery in 1800s > glitchc: there’s no law broken here. So, how should I feel about this?
- forgotmyhnacc 8y ago
  You're comparing owning a person to people voluntarily downloading apps ?
  - dannyr 8y ago
    What I'm implying is the original commenter's reasoning is faulty. But you can interpret it whatever you wish.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - glitchc 8y ago
      Actually it's your reasoning that's faulty. All crimes are not equal. That's why society deems it appropriate to outfit different crimes with different punishments. Let's not forget that until mid-20th century, adultery was illegal in most states...
  - gpm 8y ago
    He's making a reduction to the absurd to show why the reasoning he is replying to doesn't work. It's a good form of argument, quite similar to a proof by contradiction.
  - ardy42 8y ago
    > You're comparing owning a person to people voluntarily downloading apps ? He's pointing out that morally repugnant things can be legally compliant.
- djohnston 8y ago
  What an awful false equivalence.
ppeetteerr 8y ago
The break is in the use of the enterprise certificate. Everything else is just morally questionable.
yc12340 8y ago
> the kids know all of their data is being tracked for money ( and presumably are happy with it) Yes, and? Kids (and some adults) frequently send demeaning nude videos of themselves to public web forums (and promptly get harassed IRL). Are they being defrauded? Or just act that way, because they are naive and can't read emotions and body language across the computer monitor? Either way, the incident described in article is a clear children rights violation. Whether parents properly understood and condoned it or were defrauded by Facebook, — does not really matter (I suspect, that if any of them faced a trial, they all would claim the later).

joshstrange 8y ago

> kids know all of their data is being tracked for money ( and presumably are happy with it) Do they though? Do they really understand what it means? Do they understand that that nude they sent to their GF/BF is now on a FB server and FB has FULL rights to have and use that (obviously not publish it but still)? Do they just not care? I really don't know, the last question kind of terrifies me TBH. My hope is they don't fully understand what they are giving up and "$20 is $20".

glitchc 8y ago
It’s hard to gauge how much they really understand, but it’s also hard to gauge how much it really matters. I mean most of the data coming out of them is noise, really. They’re not buying houses or making major financial transactions. If this is worth doing, then $20 may even be their primary source of income, and there may not be too many legitimate ways of earning that income at that age, especially passively. Sounds like AllAdvantage.com (I had to look that up again) all over again. They tracked your internet usage and paid you money for it. My friends and I thought it was a good deal and had no compunctions about gaming it. I’m sure these kids are thinking the same thing, and our moral outrage is self-inflicted.

bellerose 8y ago

To me this is a reflection of society at this point. Monitoring & tracking of online activity was something to be avoided when I was young. I can only assume something like this would harm the reputation back then and people would go elsewhere. Although, $20 per month makes me wonder if my past self would have cared and all my info would be data mined. I doubt in the end I went unexploited in some way and likely I missed out on little money that's now being offered because of more secure devices.

TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
That’s a good point! If you use Facebook they already know more about you than you do. Might as well take $20 a month. I’m still waiting for my kickback from the in-message advertising I get in Instagram.
- Tepix 8y ago
  Not sure if you are serious. I am very aware of data I share with Facebook. I take measures to prevent them from getting data about me elsewhere. Giving up close 100% of privacy just because you are currently giving up, say, 20% of privacy seems insane. It's like saying "let's throw all our plastic in the countryside because some people are littering already".

TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago

Does not illegal equal good? What about the massive information asymmetry? How about the power imbalance? Is it possible for Facebook to have good intentions that lead to positive outcomes, or is everything they touch toxic? I think maybe we can have more than one opinion simultaneously. I really like some of Facebook’s features, and Apple has some good things going for it. And it’s definitely fair to criticise both for their shortcomings.

rsln-s 8y ago
Good point. This _should_ be illegal. And there is definitely a need for better data protection legislation, to protect consumers against exactly this power imbalance.

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 8y ago

> and the kids know all of their data is being tracked for money ( and presumably are happy with it). Yeah, obviously, kids are very good at understanding the consequences of their actions. I mean, imagine if they didn't! We would need special rules in criminal law for dealing with young offenders or something!

dannyr 8y ago

> Slavery in 1800s > glitchc: there’s no law broken here. So, how should I feel about this?

forgotmyhnacc 8y ago
You're comparing owning a person to people voluntarily downloading apps ?
- dannyr 8y ago
  What I'm implying is the original commenter's reasoning is faulty. But you can interpret it whatever you wish.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - glitchc 8y ago
    Actually it's your reasoning that's faulty. All crimes are not equal. That's why society deems it appropriate to outfit different crimes with different punishments. Let's not forget that until mid-20th century, adultery was illegal in most states...
- gpm 8y ago
  He's making a reduction to the absurd to show why the reasoning he is replying to doesn't work. It's a good form of argument, quite similar to a proof by contradiction.
- ardy42 8y ago
  > You're comparing owning a person to people voluntarily downloading apps ? He's pointing out that morally repugnant things can be legally compliant.
djohnston 8y ago
What an awful false equivalence.

ppeetteerr 8y ago

The break is in the use of the enterprise certificate. Everything else is just morally questionable.

yc12340 8y ago

> the kids know all of their data is being tracked for money ( and presumably are happy with it) Yes, and? Kids (and some adults) frequently send demeaning nude videos of themselves to public web forums (and promptly get harassed IRL). Are they being defrauded? Or just act that way, because they are naive and can't read emotions and body language across the computer monitor? Either way, the incident described in article is a clear children rights violation. Whether parents properly understood and condoned it or were defrauded by Facebook, — does not really matter (I suspect, that if any of them faced a trial, they all would claim the later).