7 ms·

I love how even knowing the company is stealing from their employees isn't enough to get you to drop using their service. I'm going to send at most 3 angry twee

I love how even knowing the company is stealing from their employees isn't enough to get you to drop using their service. I'm going to send at most 3 angry tweets about this before I forget about it and move on to the next thing to be upset about today.

bargl 8y ago
While I agree that the parent comment should probably drop them. This comment won't get them to stop. Maybe something like proposing alternatives, and empathy. We don't know them so let's not generalize them into the crowd of 3 tweeters. I use Uber from time to time. Knowing full well that they have some practices I admonish. I use Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Safeway, etc. I try to be a better consumer with products but it doesn't always work. I think we can approach this without the pitchforks and realize we all do this to some extent. The OP recognizes the problem and suggests they'll change their behavior. That's a win. Parent - good luck moving off of the service. It's hard to swap something you've come to rely on out, and good on you for recognizing that as a consumer you need to make a change.
- tedivm 8y ago
  I'll drop them if it comes down to it, but if anyone actually read the link I shared it would show that what I'm doing is supporting the worker led action that is trying to make change. The workers themselves are asking people to keep using the service, but to only tip 22 cents in the app (paying the rest of the tip in cash) in protest.
  - bargl 8y ago
    I saw that and that's even better. Which is part of why I don't like people jumping on the shame bandwagon without knowing the full story. Thanks for clarifying. Good on you for taking an active approach to this and being thoughtful. Also - I think this is where the power of the unionization comes into effect. While Unions can be a tremendous blocker of progress I feel that the pendulum has swung too far the against them.
gammateam 8y ago
> how even knowing the company is stealing from their employees isn't enough to get you to drop using their service why should it be? ahh whaaat? mashes downvote button since you are still reading, what is the exact thought process here, can you articulate this? So the service works and still provides a convenience for you, but is this action being masqueraded as the most effective way to get the company to change a policy amongst all other possible actions? Is it just to not "support" a company that does a single thing you disagree with? Is it something else? I think there are more effective ways of bringing Instacart into compliance with your ideals. Isn't that a possibility? edit: and no responses by time of writing while on the way to getting downvote censored. Be interesting to see if it flips when a different crowd gets off of work.
- Jolter 8y ago
  Can you give an example of more effective ways of bringing Instacart into compliance with your ideals? Do you mean, write them a sternly worded email?
  - gammateam 8y ago
    I would make the hypothesis that mass sternly worded emails would have the same desired effect as mass service cancelling. or to put it another way, I would say that an individual cancelling to telepathically convey their disagreement with a company is just as effective as an individual writing a sternly worded email or even protesting on the street
- Pfhreak 8y ago
  I downvoted this comment because it's got not one, but two complaints about being downvoted. Also, because it seems to be very low empathy ("Why shouldn't we reward thieves if they're effective thieves on your behalf?")
  - gammateam 8y ago
    So ignoring 90% of the post and the entire point of it, got it The perspective of “rewarding thieves” is a perspective I asked for Yet you wouldnt have even commented except for the meta downvoting mention. I dont even think you realize that the “first” downvoting complaint was part of the original post and wasnt a complaint, it was because people are predictable and maybe they would continue reading and contribute to the thread
tedivm 8y ago
Tipping in cash seems like the best way to support the workers. Keep in mind the workers themselves are organizing this campaign- they want people to put a 22 cent tip (to show solidarity) and then tip in cash. If that doesn't work then of course I'm going to drop their service. I just believe that supporting worker led actions is the best way to push change at this very moment.
finnh 8y ago
GP is also tipping in cash, forcing instacart to pay the full boat and returning tip to its rightful place as additional (and untaxed!) income. Seems like a not-bad approach.
- kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
  Where did you get the notion that tips are supposed to be untaxed income?
  - airstrike 8y ago
    Have you ever seen anyone accurately report tips earned in cash?
    - FireBeyond 8y ago
      If they're under the IRS estimate? Absolutely. Above? Not so much. A lot of wait staff seem content to push mis-information: "If you tip poorly, the IRS makes us pay tax on it anyway, i.e. we're having to pay to serve you!" No, the IRS makes an estimate on how much tipped workers are paid. If you document and it's less, then you pay tax on that. But using the IRS as the big bad wolf to get more tips that you know damn sure you're not going to report, doesn't make me the most sympathetic. I've seen wait staff say that they believe 20% should be a baseline, for bad service, 25 for "decent" and 30% for good service...
      - darkpuma 8y ago
        I've never heard wait staff making claims like that about the IRS, but what I can say is that if wait staff didn't want to get more money, they'd be quite unique in that respect...
      - rurp 8y ago
        I worked a tipped job where we signed an agreement with the IRS to automatically report a flat rate of tips, regardless of what we actually earned. So on a bad day it was certainly possible to earn less than minimum wage. That said, I don't know how common such agreements are.
halr9000 8y ago
I'm not even going to send an angry tweet. I'm going to keep ordering. If a driver takes the job, at the price Instacart wants to pay, it's on the driver, of course. And this works until it doesn't! Once people quit driving for IC, THIS is the market price signal which will cause the system to reconfigure. If IC can't get drivers, they must pay more! I have zero illusions that enough people understand the free market to be patient and allow for this to happen. We need to teach more economics in grade school.
- vkou 8y ago
  Price signals are not the one, only, sole legitimate form of communication of preferences.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  >"If a driver takes the job, at the price Instacart wants to pay" // Oh fuck off. That comment embodies the absolute lowest morals; the stark reality of the very worst of capitalism. "If they're so poor they have to pay just to eat my shit, well screw them." Please take a good hard look at yourself.
  - dang 8y ago
    Personal attacks will get you banned here regardless of how wrong someone else is or how badly you think of them. Please follow the site guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- Pfhreak 8y ago
  As a consumer, are you surprised that your tip is being used this way? I'd operate under the assumption that someone was being paid some sort of fair compensation, and my tip was an addition to whatever comp they earned. Also, it's not clear to me, are the drivers told their comp for the job before accepting? Did this person know they would earn $0.80/hr?
  - fwip 8y ago
allengeorge 8y ago
There was a book [1] written about the myth that there are ethical consumers. Basically, no matter what people _say_ convenience, cost and other factors win out on the whole. I heard about the book in a recent Planet Money episode [2]. [1] https://www.cambridge.org/gb/academic/subjects/management/business-ethics/myth-ethical-consumer https://www.cambridge.org/gb/academic/subjects/management/bu... [2] https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2019/01/18/686665609/episode-889-the-pay-what-you-want-experiment https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2019/01/18/686665609/epis...
atom_arranger 8y ago
ITT: Communists.
- dang 8y ago
  Maybe so, but please don't post unsubstantive comments here.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
throwawaymath 8y ago
The problem is the company, not the commenter you're responding to. Is it really necessary for you to shame them when they expressed concern about this, just because they won't take as extreme an action as you want them to? They're expressing some honesty and self-awareness, and you're directing your outrage at them instead of Instacart. Why don't you do something productive with your outrage, like changing your own lifestyle and keeping it to yourself? Or better yet, raise awareness without bullying someone else's attempt to process their frustration in an even-tempered way.

bargl 8y ago

While I agree that the parent comment should probably drop them. This comment won't get them to stop. Maybe something like proposing alternatives, and empathy. We don't know them so let's not generalize them into the crowd of 3 tweeters. I use Uber from time to time. Knowing full well that they have some practices I admonish. I use Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Safeway, etc. I try to be a better consumer with products but it doesn't always work. I think we can approach this without the pitchforks and realize we all do this to some extent. The OP recognizes the problem and suggests they'll change their behavior. That's a win. Parent - good luck moving off of the service. It's hard to swap something you've come to rely on out, and good on you for recognizing that as a consumer you need to make a change.

tedivm 8y ago
I'll drop them if it comes down to it, but if anyone actually read the link I shared it would show that what I'm doing is supporting the worker led action that is trying to make change. The workers themselves are asking people to keep using the service, but to only tip 22 cents in the app (paying the rest of the tip in cash) in protest.
- bargl 8y ago
  I saw that and that's even better. Which is part of why I don't like people jumping on the shame bandwagon without knowing the full story. Thanks for clarifying. Good on you for taking an active approach to this and being thoughtful. Also - I think this is where the power of the unionization comes into effect. While Unions can be a tremendous blocker of progress I feel that the pendulum has swung too far the against them.

gammateam 8y ago

> how even knowing the company is stealing from their employees isn't enough to get you to drop using their service why should it be? ahh whaaat? mashes downvote button since you are still reading, what is the exact thought process here, can you articulate this? So the service works and still provides a convenience for you, but is this action being masqueraded as the most effective way to get the company to change a policy amongst all other possible actions? Is it just to not "support" a company that does a single thing you disagree with? Is it something else? I think there are more effective ways of bringing Instacart into compliance with your ideals. Isn't that a possibility? edit: and no responses by time of writing while on the way to getting downvote censored. Be interesting to see if it flips when a different crowd gets off of work.

Jolter 8y ago
Can you give an example of more effective ways of bringing Instacart into compliance with your ideals? Do you mean, write them a sternly worded email?
- gammateam 8y ago
  I would make the hypothesis that mass sternly worded emails would have the same desired effect as mass service cancelling. or to put it another way, I would say that an individual cancelling to telepathically convey their disagreement with a company is just as effective as an individual writing a sternly worded email or even protesting on the street
Pfhreak 8y ago
I downvoted this comment because it's got not one, but two complaints about being downvoted. Also, because it seems to be very low empathy ("Why shouldn't we reward thieves if they're effective thieves on your behalf?")
- gammateam 8y ago
  So ignoring 90% of the post and the entire point of it, got it The perspective of “rewarding thieves” is a perspective I asked for Yet you wouldnt have even commented except for the meta downvoting mention. I dont even think you realize that the “first” downvoting complaint was part of the original post and wasnt a complaint, it was because people are predictable and maybe they would continue reading and contribute to the thread

tedivm 8y ago

Tipping in cash seems like the best way to support the workers. Keep in mind the workers themselves are organizing this campaign- they want people to put a 22 cent tip (to show solidarity) and then tip in cash. If that doesn't work then of course I'm going to drop their service. I just believe that supporting worker led actions is the best way to push change at this very moment.

finnh 8y ago

GP is also tipping in cash, forcing instacart to pay the full boat and returning tip to its rightful place as additional (and untaxed!) income. Seems like a not-bad approach.

kevin_thibedeau 8y ago
Where did you get the notion that tips are supposed to be untaxed income?
- airstrike 8y ago
  Have you ever seen anyone accurately report tips earned in cash?
  - FireBeyond 8y ago
    If they're under the IRS estimate? Absolutely. Above? Not so much. A lot of wait staff seem content to push mis-information: "If you tip poorly, the IRS makes us pay tax on it anyway, i.e. we're having to pay to serve you!" No, the IRS makes an estimate on how much tipped workers are paid. If you document and it's less, then you pay tax on that. But using the IRS as the big bad wolf to get more tips that you know damn sure you're not going to report, doesn't make me the most sympathetic. I've seen wait staff say that they believe 20% should be a baseline, for bad service, 25 for "decent" and 30% for good service...
    - darkpuma 8y ago
      I've never heard wait staff making claims like that about the IRS, but what I can say is that if wait staff didn't want to get more money, they'd be quite unique in that respect...
    - rurp 8y ago
      I worked a tipped job where we signed an agreement with the IRS to automatically report a flat rate of tips, regardless of what we actually earned. So on a bad day it was certainly possible to earn less than minimum wage. That said, I don't know how common such agreements are.

halr9000 8y ago

I'm not even going to send an angry tweet. I'm going to keep ordering. If a driver takes the job, at the price Instacart wants to pay, it's on the driver, of course. And this works until it doesn't! Once people quit driving for IC, THIS is the market price signal which will cause the system to reconfigure. If IC can't get drivers, they must pay more! I have zero illusions that enough people understand the free market to be patient and allow for this to happen. We need to teach more economics in grade school.

vkou 8y ago
Price signals are not the one, only, sole legitimate form of communication of preferences.
pbhjpbhj 8y ago
>"If a driver takes the job, at the price Instacart wants to pay" // Oh fuck off. That comment embodies the absolute lowest morals; the stark reality of the very worst of capitalism. "If they're so poor they have to pay just to eat my shit, well screw them." Please take a good hard look at yourself.
- dang 8y ago
  Personal attacks will get you banned here regardless of how wrong someone else is or how badly you think of them. Please follow the site guidelines. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Pfhreak 8y ago
As a consumer, are you surprised that your tip is being used this way? I'd operate under the assumption that someone was being paid some sort of fair compensation, and my tip was an addition to whatever comp they earned. Also, it's not clear to me, are the drivers told their comp for the job before accepting? Did this person know they would earn $0.80/hr?
- fwip 8y ago

allengeorge 8y ago

There was a book [1] written about the myth that there are ethical consumers. Basically, no matter what people _say_ convenience, cost and other factors win out on the whole. I heard about the book in a recent Planet Money episode [2]. [1] https://www.cambridge.org/gb/academic/subjects/management/business-ethics/myth-ethical-consumer https://www.cambridge.org/gb/academic/subjects/management/bu... [2] https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2019/01/18/686665609/episode-889-the-pay-what-you-want-experiment https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2019/01/18/686665609/epis...

atom_arranger 8y ago

ITT: Communists.

dang 8y ago
Maybe so, but please don't post unsubstantive comments here.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

throwawaymath 8y ago

The problem is the company, not the commenter you're responding to. Is it really necessary for you to shame them when they expressed concern about this, just because they won't take as extreme an action as you want them to? They're expressing some honesty and self-awareness, and you're directing your outrage at them instead of Instacart. Why don't you do something productive with your outrage, like changing your own lifestyle and keeping it to yourself? Or better yet, raise awareness without bullying someone else's attempt to process their frustration in an even-tempered way.