6 ms·

Possibly a product owner trying out the latest build, receiving a call, accepting it, and then waiting for the call initiator to receive the message that the ca

by scraft 8y ago

Possibly a product owner trying out the latest build, receiving a call, accepting it, and then waiting for the call initiator to receive the message that the call has been accepted, and then start sending data and asking: "Why doesn't it take X seconds before I can start talking". To which the engineers possibly explained the reasons and the product owner saying: "But I want it instant, let's bypass all this extra stuff and get a proof of concept instant answer working" To which the engineer said: "But we'd technically be sending data before the call has even been accepted" To which the product owner said: "That's okay, the user can't actually see that data, let us just get this in for now, we can worry about the security/privacy side later". To which the engineer said "but, but, but" saw the product owners eyes glaze over and just made the commit: Commit 1279: Remove very important security/privacy feature of ensuring no data is transmitted until the call has been accepted. This is again my best judgement, do not come to me when this blows up, please speak to the product owner. Then went to the pub in despair.

whamlastxmas 8y ago
I think it's much more likely their code is a mess and it's not super obvious when stuff starts and ends and this is just an unintentional mistake.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  You hear this excuse all the time, don't FAANG employ the world's very best developers? Maybe their code is a mess for orthogonal reasons - management, profit-motive? Aside: I thought I'd heard devs have automated analysers that step through and find all possible code paths, allowing complex code to be audited for security issues and such? Presumably that's how these sorts of bugs should be found in testing.
  - MagicPropmaker 8y ago
    Judging from their quality issues, I'm not so sure they're attracting the "world's very best developers" any more.
    - ethbro 8y ago
      Even the best developers need time to develop and robust QA.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - oddevan 8y ago
    I just keep going back to the XKCD of how "our entire field is bad at what we do": https://www.xkcd.com/2030/ https://www.xkcd.com/2030/
  - swat535 8y ago
    Since they have an impeccable interview process that only selects the brightests.. They may be all too busy implementing linked lists and inverting binary trees instead of actually delivering a working product.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    great developers with with bad process, quick turnaround, lack of ownership and bad habits can lead to a mess. Also - maybe they inherited the code from a startup and never had the chance to refactor and so there was a mess from the start. Either way, bugs happen. Of all kinds, even bad ones'. More circumspect than a 'bug' is that this got through their tests. Their end-to-end testing should have picked this up.
  - manigandham 8y ago
    >> world's very best developers And some of the world's very worst. There are not 10s of thousands of world-class developers to hire in the first place and they would be focused on much higher-level details than implementing basic features and maintenance. That gruntwork requires solid reliable workers with experience but the current screening processes do more harm more than help in getting that talent.
  - asveikau 8y ago
    > don't FAANG employ the world's very best developers? People have to stop putting these types on a pedestal. Some of the least intelligent people I've known have worked for some very big names. You shouldn't trust someone based on who they work for or what name is attached.
ABeeSea 8y ago
Ah yes, it’s always the product owners fault and engineering is always fault-less. A HN classic.
- MagicPropmaker 8y ago
  Also, HN won't comment on how/why Apple insists that iOS is "secure by design". I've brought this up and it gets buried. Why? https://www.apple.com/business/resources/docs/iOS_Security_Overview.pdf https://www.apple.com/business/resources/docs/iOS_Security_O... This phrase is used several times on their current website: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22secure+by+design%22+site%3Aapple.com https://www.google.com/search?q=%22secure+by+design%22+site%...
  - ethbro 8y ago
    Because they're well documented as having a more robust hardware/software security model than the dumpster fire that is Android security?
    - MagicPropmaker 8y ago
      Does Android make the same claims?
    - acct1771 8y ago
      Wait, what's wrong with F-Droid, exactly?
dec0dedab0de 8y ago
I wish this conversation didn't sound so familiar.
uberdru 8y ago
I think this is very close to spot on, though the version I've heard from developers involved with mobile involves VP's using the app/feature once it's been deployed: "Why is my group call taking 20 seconds to connect, this is unacceptable!". Fire drill ensues.

by scraft 8y ago

whamlastxmas 8y ago

I think it's much more likely their code is a mess and it's not super obvious when stuff starts and ends and this is just an unintentional mistake.

pbhjpbhj 8y ago
You hear this excuse all the time, don't FAANG employ the world's very best developers? Maybe their code is a mess for orthogonal reasons - management, profit-motive? Aside: I thought I'd heard devs have automated analysers that step through and find all possible code paths, allowing complex code to be audited for security issues and such? Presumably that's how these sorts of bugs should be found in testing.
- MagicPropmaker 8y ago
  Judging from their quality issues, I'm not so sure they're attracting the "world's very best developers" any more.
  - ethbro 8y ago
    Even the best developers need time to develop and robust QA.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- oddevan 8y ago
  I just keep going back to the XKCD of how "our entire field is bad at what we do": https://www.xkcd.com/2030/ https://www.xkcd.com/2030/
- swat535 8y ago
  Since they have an impeccable interview process that only selects the brightests.. They may be all too busy implementing linked lists and inverting binary trees instead of actually delivering a working product.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  great developers with with bad process, quick turnaround, lack of ownership and bad habits can lead to a mess. Also - maybe they inherited the code from a startup and never had the chance to refactor and so there was a mess from the start. Either way, bugs happen. Of all kinds, even bad ones'. More circumspect than a 'bug' is that this got through their tests. Their end-to-end testing should have picked this up.
- manigandham 8y ago
  >> world's very best developers And some of the world's very worst. There are not 10s of thousands of world-class developers to hire in the first place and they would be focused on much higher-level details than implementing basic features and maintenance. That gruntwork requires solid reliable workers with experience but the current screening processes do more harm more than help in getting that talent.
- asveikau 8y ago
  > don't FAANG employ the world's very best developers? People have to stop putting these types on a pedestal. Some of the least intelligent people I've known have worked for some very big names. You shouldn't trust someone based on who they work for or what name is attached.

ABeeSea 8y ago

Ah yes, it’s always the product owners fault and engineering is always fault-less. A HN classic.

MagicPropmaker 8y ago
Also, HN won't comment on how/why Apple insists that iOS is "secure by design". I've brought this up and it gets buried. Why? https://www.apple.com/business/resources/docs/iOS_Security_Overview.pdf https://www.apple.com/business/resources/docs/iOS_Security_O... This phrase is used several times on their current website: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22secure+by+design%22+site%3Aapple.com https://www.google.com/search?q=%22secure+by+design%22+site%...
- ethbro 8y ago
  Because they're well documented as having a more robust hardware/software security model than the dumpster fire that is Android security?
  - MagicPropmaker 8y ago
    Does Android make the same claims?
  - acct1771 8y ago
    Wait, what's wrong with F-Droid, exactly?

dec0dedab0de 8y ago

I wish this conversation didn't sound so familiar.

uberdru 8y ago

I think this is very close to spot on, though the version I've heard from developers involved with mobile involves VP's using the app/feature once it's been deployed: "Why is my group call taking 20 seconds to connect, this is unacceptable!". Fire drill ensues.