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> impossible to navigate It is depressing to me how low the bar is for our ability to learn an application. If the UI has more than a single list or button, it

> impossible to navigate It is depressing to me how low the bar is for our ability to learn an application. If the UI has more than a single list or button, it becomes "impossible to navigate". There was a time when users would expect some time getting to know their application and even, dare I say, read a guide or manual! Sometimes extremely powerful, creative, and useful tools will have a learning curve. Snap could offer some amazing capabilities, but because of this "simple is everything" mindset, they will face outrage if they expose anything beyond message passing.

companyhen 8y ago
The thing is, their old UI was near perfect. They ended up pulling a Digg v3.0
saagarjha 8y ago
Making a UI that requires reading a guide or manual necessary is kind of depressing as well, to be honest.
dahfizz 8y ago
There is a big difference between a complex UI on a complex application and an unintuitive UI on what should be very simple. It is completely nonsensical how Snapchat works. You have to swipe every which way and there's no clues when to swipe where. You just have to memorize the magical incantation to do what you want through trial and error. We as a society have built up a fantastic 'language' of UI. We know what buttons and menus, etc do. Snapchat throws away all the ways you want to intuitively navigate and give you no clues about what to do instead.
- michaelbuckbee 8y ago
  I've only dipped my toe into Snapchat a few times, but you are spot on with your description of the UI. However, I think your description also fits CLI's which has always led me to wonder if maybe Snapchat's UI is really a way forward as a "native mobile" CLI of a sort. We're already seeing things like pinch-to-zoom, swipe to move next, etc. being taken and recombined for all sorts of apps.
  - steve19 8y ago
    The CLI is self-documenting. xyz --help, -h or --help | grep 'abc', along with man xyz gives you everything you need to know. This is probably one of my favorite things about the CLI versus GUI. There is nothing worse than working with cli apps that have weird incantations.
    - krageon 8y ago
      Maybe it's been a while since you used a CLI when you weren't intimately familiar with it, or maybe it has been a while since you used an application that deviates from the -h standard (or that doesn't provide a manpage, opting instead for info), but I'd really hesitate to call this process self-documenting for anyone that doesn't already know the tool. I've been using command-line interfaces for a pretty long time now, and I'm incredibly thankful that these days I can look something up on the internet and generally find a list of some examples on how to use things. Man pages are generally incredibly verbose in all the wrong ways (far too much information, far too little that you actually want) and the -h switch at best gives you some flags and descriptions that are fundamentally too short to teach you anything useful. There is no real global standard for what kind of flags or inputs do what things (for example, far from every program with a CLI interface will actually accept "-" as an input file even though that's one of those things a lot of people use and should therefore be pretty obvious), further obfuscating the core workings of anything you might be using.
mlazos 8y ago
You shouldn’t have to be a power user in order to use an application. There are no clues what do other than trial and error
shobith 8y ago
My hypothesis around this was younger (or curious people) would just "get" the UI and the older people won't be on the app or not be as active.
- marcodave 8y ago
  indeed. Kids would learn the whole coreutils flags by heart if that's what it takes to see some bikini shots
joe5150 8y ago
Can you tell me without searching how to find a list of everybody you have added as a friend on Snapchat? You are free to look at the app itself.
kokokokoko 8y ago
Remember these services are not designed to fulfill a previously existing need. They are designed to become addictive and create a new need, which they then have a monopoly on fulfilling. The applications you are thinking of served preexisting needs, so it required more upfront complexity. Something like Snapchat's UI does not have the burden of fulfilling a previously existing need. That is, until they redesigned it. Then suddenly, the new UI had to provide for a pre-existing need and as an obvious consequence, has been more difficult for both new and existing users.

companyhen 8y ago

The thing is, their old UI was near perfect. They ended up pulling a Digg v3.0

saagarjha 8y ago

Making a UI that requires reading a guide or manual necessary is kind of depressing as well, to be honest.

dahfizz 8y ago

There is a big difference between a complex UI on a complex application and an unintuitive UI on what should be very simple. It is completely nonsensical how Snapchat works. You have to swipe every which way and there's no clues when to swipe where. You just have to memorize the magical incantation to do what you want through trial and error. We as a society have built up a fantastic 'language' of UI. We know what buttons and menus, etc do. Snapchat throws away all the ways you want to intuitively navigate and give you no clues about what to do instead.

michaelbuckbee 8y ago
I've only dipped my toe into Snapchat a few times, but you are spot on with your description of the UI. However, I think your description also fits CLI's which has always led me to wonder if maybe Snapchat's UI is really a way forward as a "native mobile" CLI of a sort. We're already seeing things like pinch-to-zoom, swipe to move next, etc. being taken and recombined for all sorts of apps.
- steve19 8y ago
  The CLI is self-documenting. xyz --help, -h or --help | grep 'abc', along with man xyz gives you everything you need to know. This is probably one of my favorite things about the CLI versus GUI. There is nothing worse than working with cli apps that have weird incantations.
  - krageon 8y ago
    Maybe it's been a while since you used a CLI when you weren't intimately familiar with it, or maybe it has been a while since you used an application that deviates from the -h standard (or that doesn't provide a manpage, opting instead for info), but I'd really hesitate to call this process self-documenting for anyone that doesn't already know the tool. I've been using command-line interfaces for a pretty long time now, and I'm incredibly thankful that these days I can look something up on the internet and generally find a list of some examples on how to use things. Man pages are generally incredibly verbose in all the wrong ways (far too much information, far too little that you actually want) and the -h switch at best gives you some flags and descriptions that are fundamentally too short to teach you anything useful. There is no real global standard for what kind of flags or inputs do what things (for example, far from every program with a CLI interface will actually accept "-" as an input file even though that's one of those things a lot of people use and should therefore be pretty obvious), further obfuscating the core workings of anything you might be using.

mlazos 8y ago

You shouldn’t have to be a power user in order to use an application. There are no clues what do other than trial and error

shobith 8y ago

My hypothesis around this was younger (or curious people) would just "get" the UI and the older people won't be on the app or not be as active.

marcodave 8y ago
indeed. Kids would learn the whole coreutils flags by heart if that's what it takes to see some bikini shots

joe5150 8y ago

Can you tell me without searching how to find a list of everybody you have added as a friend on Snapchat? You are free to look at the app itself.

kokokokoko 8y ago

Remember these services are not designed to fulfill a previously existing need. They are designed to become addictive and create a new need, which they then have a monopoly on fulfilling. The applications you are thinking of served preexisting needs, so it required more upfront complexity. Something like Snapchat's UI does not have the burden of fulfilling a previously existing need. That is, until they redesigned it. Then suddenly, the new UI had to provide for a pre-existing need and as an obvious consequence, has been more difficult for both new and existing users.